Knights of Awakening: Jedi Safe Spaces (Charles McBride)

OB1, I wasn't going to post in this thread anymore, but since we've established an amicable exchange of ideas I will respond once and you're welcome to respond as many times as you'd like but this will be my last response to this particular thread.

There are three ideas I see presented in your argument that I wish to address:

1. I am a self-loathing white person.
2. My ideals are reverse-racist
3. That personal suffering means there is no ethno-cultural suffering or is equivalent to ethno-cultural suffering.

In response to the idea that I'm a self-loathing white person. I used to be. White guilt is a real thing, but it's also not inherently bad. White guilt can help white people take the proper attitude towards understanding the struggles of people of color, but it is essential to move beyond it. That doesn't mean ignore the feeling of guilt, but to work through it. It also doesn't mean you (random white person) will never feel guilty again, but it does mean you'll get to a point where guilt transforms into patience, understanding, empathy, and a refusal to be willingly complicit in white supremacy. Left unchecked, white guilt can become unproductive because it can become egocentric and therefore completely lose any utility. I was one of those people who let it become an unproductive thing and it took a long time to get out of that unproductive phase into one of understanding.

Part of that process is removing yourself from the equation. That is to say that you cannot make criticisms of white privilege and supremacy about you and your feelings. You have to learn to recognize that these criticisms are not about you personally, but at the same time you need to analyze your own assumptions and behaviors and change accordingly in response to those criticisms. Some might call it depersonalization, however I shy away from that term because there is an aspect of these criticisms that is personal (via membership in the group being criticized).

This is just the basics of it, but that's the gist of the idea.

In response to the idea that my attitude and/or ideals are reverse racist or racist (implying that racism can occur against white people). This may be another one of those things we disagree on and will need to be continued at another time, but I consider racism to be a systemic problem. White people can't be systemically discriminated against because there is no ethno-cultural group that has enough power to oppress white people solely on the basis of their skin color. Yes, there are places in the world where white people are not looked upon favorably, maybe even hated, but even then it cannot compare to the historico-political momentum of white power and imperialism throughout the centuries leading to modern white supremacy.

In response to the idea that personal suffering negates ethno-cultural suffering or is equivalent to ethno-cultural suffering. This one ties into my conception of what racism means, but stated another way I would say, "just because white supremacy exists does not mean you are incapable of suffering hardships. It only means you do not suffer hardships because of being white."

Once again, I appreciate your thoughtful criticisms. I will add that the Dr. Kamau Kambon statements made in the video are not in line with my views nor do I agree with him on various issues he stands for. It's hard to tell since there wasn't much context for what he was saying, but it sounded to me like his statement was intended to make a point, "we have to be as threatening to white people as they are to us." But I can't say for sure because I don't have the full context, I just know that hyperbolic language is often used after tragedies (this was in the wake of Hurricane Katrina and the failed relief efforts). Nearly eleven years ago and they still haven't repaired the damage from Katrina (Yes, I realize the article is year old).

In response to the idea that I'm a self-loathing white person. I used to be. White guilt is a real thing, but it's also not inherently bad. White guilt can help white people take the proper attitude towards understanding the struggles of people of color, but it is essential to move beyond it. That doesn't mean ignore the feeling of guilt, but to work through it. It also doesn't mean you (random white person) will never feel guilty again, but it does mean you'll get to a point where guilt transforms into patience, understanding, empathy, and a refusal to be willingly complicit in white supremacy. Left unchecked, white guilt can become unproductive because it can become egocentric and therefore completely lose any utility. I was one of those people who let it become an unproductive thing and it took a long time to get out of that unproductive phase into one of understanding.

Only a question to this part. What specifically do you feel guilty for? Or do you feel guilty for what others have done just because you share a few of the same physical features as those people, features that you have that were by no choice of yours I might mention? Pretty sure the people that hijacked the planes for 9/11 had noses. I'm guessing that you have a nose too... do you feel guilty for being a member of "people with noses" that killed all those people???

In response to the idea that my attitude and/or ideals are reverse racist or racist (implying that racism can occur against white people). This may be another one of those things we disagree on and will need to be continued at another time, but I consider racism to be a systemic problem. White people can't be systemically discriminated against because there is no ethno-cultural group that has enough power to oppress white people solely on the basis of their skin color.

Yes there is. And it depends on where you are at and how large of an area you are considering. Area of town??? Too obvious. City??? Plenty of cities that are predominantly nonwhite where white people are discriminated against. Small country??? Same answer. Large country??? Same answer again. Worldwide??? There is still one. White people are a large enough ethno-cultural group to do it as well and it seems like that is what is wanted by some white people. And from what I have read, please correct me if I am mistaken, that is what you want.

In response to the idea that personal suffering negates ethno-cultural suffering or is equivalent to ethno-cultural suffering. This one ties into my conception of what racism means, but stated another way I would say, "just because white supremacy exists does not mean you are incapable of suffering hardships. It only means you do not suffer hardships because of being white."

I do not believe you have the right to tell anyone they have not suffered something if you do not know what they have been through because I have suffered hardships for being white and only because I was white. I had a career that I loved, a career where I didn't work because I enjoyed it. I loved the job I did, the people I worked with, the people I worked for and the people who worked for me. Do to cut backs, they combined two departments into one and the other manager and I were up for the job of running the new department. We had our interviews scheduled, he wasn't even gonna go because he knew the job was mine. I was more qualified, been there longer, actually made less money, perfect attendance and great at my job. His attendance was horrible, his words not mine, his performance numbers were average at best so we actually went to lunch right after he had his interview just to talk about what he was going to do next. We were great friends. Still are and this was many years ago. But when all was said and done, he got the job. We went out about a month later with our director, well his director my former director, and he told us both that they didn't have a choice. The HR director forced the decision based on race. Now yes, that pissed me off, but not at either of my friends, at the "racist" system. Now you can say "one job isn't a hardship" but my life fell apart after all that and it took me a long time to get it straight again. Now that is not the only time I have suffered a hardship because of the color of my skin but that is one that was caused by that ethno-cultural power you were saying doesn't exist.
Now I guess some people would be mad at my friend for accepting the job, but he did nothing to me. or blame all black people, but none of them did anything to me or whatever else. The HR director made the call and I have no issues with him either, he followed the rules as he interpreted them. How can I blame someone when they themselves haven't harmed me. That's like me going and finding the great grandchild of the bully who kicked my great grandfather's ass 100 years ago and kicking the shit out of him because his great grandfather was an asshole. Your right, that kid should feel guilty and deserves every bad thing that ever happens to him....
I am truly sorry that you feel guilty and somehow responsible for the color of your skin. In my opinion, that should be all the more reason for you to stop looking at skin color and look within. Color of skin does not define who anyone is, who people actually are defines who they are.

A friend of mine sent this to me. He thought I would like it and was shocked when I told him that it actually upset me and that stuff like this was just as much a part of the problem as everything else. But...it did finally help him start to understand my beliefs and where I come from. I don't know if this will help anyone else get it but it did him.

I said if you remove the word white from it then you will start to get it. Add a few more and you'll get it a little better. "As a person, I am sick of people being judged by the color of their skin and the hypocrisy of people who have complained about being judged by the color of their skin for decades doing it just boggles my mind". We can't get past it this way. It's like the ancient blood oaths. Member of family "A" kills a member of family "B". So a member of family "B" kills a member of family "A". So a member of family "A" kills a member of family "B". So a member of family "B" kills a member of family "A". This is a never ending cycle. The only way it ends is through eradication of one or the other, or someone must break the cycle of hate. And if we don't break this cycle then we are all doomed.

i want to address most of your major points but im not going to be able to respond to all of this at once

Jamie Stick wrote: OB1, I wasn't going to post in this thread anymore, but since we've established an amicable exchange of ideas I will respond once and you're welcome to respond as many times as you'd like but this will be my last response to this particular thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZpIrlcZmXQ


im gonna start here and hopefully i can finish tomorrow

Jamie Stick wrote: There are three ideas I see presented in your argument that I wish to address:

1. I am a self-loathing white person.
2. My ideals are reverse-racist
3. That personal suffering means there is no ethno-cultural suffering or is equivalent to ethno-cultural suffering.

In response to the idea that I'm a self-loathing white person. I used to be. White guilt is a real thing, but it's also not inherently bad. White guilt can help white people take the proper attitude towards understanding the struggles of people of color, but it is essential to move beyond it. That doesn't mean ignore the feeling of guilt, but to work through it. It also doesn't mean you (random white person) will never feel guilty again, but it does mean you'll get to a point where guilt transforms into patience, understanding, empathy, and a refusal to be willingly complicit in white supremacy. Left unchecked, white guilt can become unproductive because it can become egocentric and therefore completely lose any utility. I was one of those people who let it become an unproductive thing and it took a long time to get out of that unproductive phase into one of understanding.

Part of that process is removing yourself from the equation. That is to say that you cannot make criticisms of white privilege and supremacy about you and your feelings. You have to learn to recognize that these criticisms are not about you personally, but at the same time you need to analyze your own assumptions and behaviors and change accordingly in response to those criticisms. Some might call it depersonalization, however I shy away from that term because there is an aspect of these criticisms that is personal (via membership in the group being criticized).

This is just the basics of it, but that's the gist of the idea.

i know this seems completely insensitive to many people but i feel no more personally responsible for slavery or institutional racism than i do for the dark ages or the sinking of the titanic
war is not my fault, genocide is not my fault, rape, murder, the holocaust, the mass killings of the communist regimes or the 20,000 yearly human sacrifices of the Aztecs, the untouchable caste in India, female genital mutilation, the genocide in darfur

all these things happened and happen because human beings (of every race) are capable of great selfishness, foolishness, and cruelty

technology and economics and well basically the development of western culture have resulted in whites having a great deal of relative influence in the modern world compared to other skin tones but thats more like the luck of the draw"

it certainly is not a result of any particularly special trait inherent in white skin, and i take no more credit for all of the awesome things that white people (other than me) have done than i do assume blame for the terrible things they have done

my personal responsibility is to look at my society as honestly as i am able, and to use my influence as well as i am able in order to nudge culture in the direction that i think it should go

i do benefit from the system, yes, but as i have said before, this is what the system is FOR, for me to benefit, and also you; all of us

the problem is not that i benefit from an unfair system, but that the system is still unfair

but i didnt make it unfair, and i use my voice as best as i know how in order to make it more fair, and that is all i am ever going to feel i am responsible or guilty for: what i do or fail to do with the influence that i have

i would add that i certainly do feel angry (and sad) at the injustices in the world, and when i look specifically at the injustices associated with racism in america i get angry at "whites" too

but i know better than to stereotype anonymous people by their race, period: what makes racism wrong is that individuals are made to suffer negative consequences as a result of factors that have nothingto do with thier personal choices beliefs or behaviors 

all fair judgement(if there is such a thing) has to be relevant to the individual s behavior, and even then it needs to be understood from the context of his or her personal experience

stereotyping of all kinds is in inherently unfair and will produce more injustice

all of our citizens need to have access to benefits protections and opportunities of our society and that is the message to focus on, imo

The Almighty Dude wrote: I think that's the difference between me and people who care about unimportant garbage like identity politics. I don't think anyone is more or less qualified to talk about any issue due to circumstances beyond their control.

A Jedi who believes in the "Jedi believe" part of the doctrine! I thought you guys had gone extinct ?! :blink:

Jamie, I have not forgotten or walked away from our conversation.
I apologize for the delay in responding, these last two weeks I have had to dedicate most of my computer (with a keyboard) time to studying for exams, and putting together class presentations and essays. This discussion, for me, requires more thought and time than most and I havent had an opportunity to do that until now.

Jamie Stick wrote: There are three ideas I see presented in your argument that I wish to address:

1. I am a self-loathing white person.
2. My ideals are reverse-racist
3. That personal suffering means there is no ethno-cultural suffering or is equivalent to ethno-cultural suffering.

In response to the idea that my attitude and/or ideals are reverse racist or racist (implying that racism can occur against white people). This may be another one of those things we disagree on and will need to be continued at another time, but I consider racism to be a systemic problem. White people can't be systemically discriminated against because there is no ethno-cultural group that has enough power to oppress white people solely on the basis of their skin color. Yes, there are places in the world where white people are not looked upon favorably, maybe even hated, but even then it cannot compare to the historico-political momentum of white power and imperialism throughout the centuries leading to modern white supremacy.

this idea of racism being something that only whites (or the "powerful" race) can be guilty of is a result of deliberately tweaking the definition of racism until it can only apply to whites

it is, imo, disingenuous and agenda driven

initially, the accepted definition of racism was basically"
*the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
* prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

but it turns out that by this definition, white people generally arent all that racist anymore

but there still are clearly a great deal of racial disparities in our society, and so it was decided that the definition needed to be expanded

now, for the purposes of being very precise and clear about what we mean when we say things, i can allow for the distinction between racism and prejudice

i even rather like the criteria of POWER being the element that makes the difference ("racism = racial prejudice + power")

but an honest exploration into the concept of power will reveal that it is relative and contextual and even in a society with an established racial bias the dynamic is not one which can be reduced to race alone

a school teacher has quite a lot of power in the classroom, then less in the hierarchy of the administration, then maybe his wife pretty much just tells him what to do at home and its easier to let her be in charge than it is to argue with her

if he is pulled over by a police officer he has less power, and if some day he is car jacked on his way to school or perhaps a student begins shooting up the campus, he has little-to-no relative power at all

unless of course he also has a gun, then the power balance theoretically shifts again

bus drivers have a lot of power on the bus - if they tell you to get off of the bus and you refuse, they will call the police and the police will not care what color you are or what color the driver is

at least, that was true in austin tx and seems to be true in tampa fl

so the idea of using ones relative power in a way to impede the progress of or cause suffering to another because of their race does make sense to me

but if we stay with this understanding it acknowledges that virtually everyone CAN be racist, even if only in a limited context, because "power" is a fundamental element of every interaction between any individual organisms - its isnt even limited to human beings: deer have more power than grasses, wolves have more power than deer - and yet if the grasses all die, so do the deer, and so do the wolves

what about racism between other races?

can a black person not be racist against a mexican? or a puerto rican against a black? is htere like a totem pole where each group can be racist to those above it but not to those below?

there is a long history of racism among quite a few asian cultures, which puts in a difficult position: either acknowledge the reality of non-white racism, or cling to a view that deliberately disregards a corroborable element reality within the history of the global community

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/05/27/china-and-india-have-a-huge-problem-with-racism-toward-black-people/

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2015/11/01/issues/tackle-embedded-racism-chokes-japan/#.V6ihfNIrIdU

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2014/10/06/asia-pacific/social-issues-asia-pacific/south-korea-serious-problem-racism-u-n-envoy-says/#.V6iiTNIrIdU

ect ect - there are thousands of examples of racism from every single race
because
racism is just one of the many many many ways that humans can express the in-group vs out-group tendency (a tendency which is ingrained into us as a consequence of evolution btw, and for good reason, and which should not necessarily be seen as inherently bad, if for no other reason than that contemporary morality is simply moronic in the face of the millions of years that have gone into specie adaptation-which isnt to say that racism is to be justified with some appeal to darwin, only that the "us vs them" mentality does actually become pretty handy in certain contexts) and the potential for socially destructive racism exists within individual personalities, each of us as individuals, rather than being something which can be applied only to the "villain" group

but there IS a "villain" group for some, and so to further that agenda, the dishonesty has to kick it up another notch:
"The essential feature of racism is not hostility or misperception, but rather the defense of a system from which advantage is derived on the basis of race. The manner in which the defense is articulated - either with hostility or subtlety - is not nearly as important as the fact that it insures the continuation of a privileged relationship. Thus it is necessary to broaden the definition of racism beyond prejudice to include sentiments that in their consequence, if not in their intent, support the racial status quo."
David Wellman

ok, so thats a problem - well, its several problems lol

with this view, we not only identify racism as a social evil, (so someone has to be a villain) but we also forcefully recruit every person who does anything except armed revolution, as being a racist, (except obviously the races who suffer cant be racist) regardless of their intent or their understanding, simply on the basis of "supporting" the "racial status quo"

"supporting the racial status quo"

??

that could mean so much that it doesn't mean anything - the many nuances of this term and the myriad ways in which any given person may be accused of falling into it, is so broad that its is useless - its a catch-all to make a despised group (whites) into "the bad guys" literally on no better grounds than their white skin

"defense of a system from which advantage is derived on the basis of race"

so anything which doesnt directly oppose my entire society is, de facto, defending the system aka racism, regardless of my intent

"The manner in which the defense is articulated - either with hostility or subtlety - is not nearly as important as the fact that it insures the continuation of a privileged relationship."

by these standards, i am defending the racist system and "supporting the racial status quo" simply by having a job, raising a family, and paying my taxes - but only if i am white- if i am not white and i have a job and pay taxes, i am simply a cog in the wheel of the evil empire, exploited, powerless, and forced into a life of servitude by my white masters

i was taught that i am responsible for my actions and decisions - no one else is responsible for me, and i am responsible for the decisions of no one else

here is an article that puts a better argument than i can, from the perspective of trained sociologist

http://epress.lib.uts.edu.au/journals/index.php/mcs/article/view/1075/1605



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMGfhXCpN2k

White people are responsible for 9/10 bad things that happen on this planet.

Silas Mercury wrote: White people are responsible for 9/10 bad things that happen on this planet.

how old are you?

Silas Mercury wrote: [strike]White people are responsible for 9/10[/strike] People are responsible for bad things that happen on this planet. Some of those people are white

I fixed it for you.

to finish off the point of my last post, i want to say that "the system" forces all of us to defend it - if youre not living "off the grid", making all of your own items, providing for all of your own healthcare, and growing all of your own food (basically if you are spending any money, at all, for anything) youre "defending" the system by helping to keep it going

if the system is inherently racist then youre perpetuating a racist system, whatever your race and whatever your intent

i would mention that even those who protest and rally and "cause trouble" are defending the system, because thats actually part of our system too

the american system was designed with the intention that it could essentially be "self correcting" by its citizens. we have acknowledge that the idea of who was a citizen was different then, no doubt, but you can choose to see that as evidence of the "evil empire" or you can choose to recognize the progress that has been made, and choose to see that as evidence of the fact that our country is capable of making healthy progress and healthy change over time, whch means that the empire isnt entirely evil after-all

which is how i choose to see it

what its grown into is a huge discussion but for the purposes of this point, i just want to say that its hard to buck the system in any real way because basically it will crush you

there are ways to break from it but its tough and for the most part those who dotn participate with the system can be found among the homelessness and in prison

the best option (i think) is to really think about how we as individuals would prefer to participate with the system, so that we can do it in such a way as to live justly or fairly ourselves, as individuals, and promote such ideas and lifestyles however we can, while also getting what we need in order to be healthy and happy

basically im saying it is not appropriate to hold "defending the system" against anyone, but that this is a charge which applies to everyone if you really want to start throwing it around