BBC News - "Have Jedis created a new religion?"

Why? Jedi has two meanings. One is fictional, the other real. I don't see anything inherently sad in some (myself included) identifying with one and not the other.

I mean... my midichlorian count alone rules me out of the former. :whistle:

Edan wrote: I'm not saying I want to forget about them, I just would rather they didn't quote Yoda everytime they talk about Jediism..

Why not? Frank Oz speaking deeply philosophically, backwards, through a Muppet was probably the highlight of the entire series for me.

tzb wrote: Why? Jedi has two meanings. One is fictional, the other real. I don't see anything inherently sad in some (myself included) identifying with one and not the other.

I'm going to try to say this clearly and delicately, but I'll probably balls it all up, and I'm fine with that, too.

The farther we try to distance ourselves from "the source" while using the same title, the more we're hurting ourselves. Why?

Well, for starters, there's nothing at all wrong with using fiction as the basis for self-improvement--the rest of the world's religions do it daily--especially one which is based on the exact same sources that we teach here at the Temple. The fiction isn't inherently shameful and we should stop treating it like it is; it's a vehicle for enlightenment just the same as the Upanishads or whatever your favorite Watts book is, or a Krishnamurti lecture, or Russel Brand's latest viral video. Yes. It's fictional. So is Blade Runner, and it teaches us a very lot about where we draw the boundaries on being "human." So is Star Trek, arguably the most progressive television show to ever exist, which routinely teaches us values like tolerance and understanding and the value of life. If we start discounting fiction for the sake of discounting fiction, you have an entire generation of people who've learned valueable life lessons from Harry Potter that they didn't have access to learning in their home life that are going to take three giant steps backward. Just because it's fictional doesn't mean it's not valuable.

Secondly, the word is a trademark of LucasFilms, LTD., now owned by Disney, the reason that intellectual property laws got really, super, heavily codified. This word, "Jedi", has a very specific pop-culture meaning that dates back to 1977, and is wholly different than the sources from which it originally came. Because of this, when you say the word "jedi", people the world over automatically assume what you're talking about, because they have a nearly-inescapable reference point. Even people who have never seen Star Wars know about Jedi, generally. So, when you choose to use a word that heavily and strongly identified with a certain idea, with a certain frame of reference, and then insist that isn't what you mean at all it makes you look really silly. You either look dishonest or you look like you're ashamed of where you got the title. Either of these cases is ridiculously damning for any group that wants to be taken seriously. If, instead of Jedi, we decided to call ourselves the "Religion of Coca-Cola" and then only served Pepsi at our get-togethers, we'd be instantly outed as frauds, no matter what we claimed "Coca-Cola" meant to us. Distancing ourselves overmuch from the source material hurts our public image and our credibility.

Thirdly, Star Wars has nearly worldwide brand recognition, as said before. What this means is that we barely even have to advertise, the movies do it for us. All people need to know about real Jedi is that we exist (as per articles like these), and they will flock out of curiosity to us. Some of them will stay if it suits them, others will not. That's fine. We're not in the proselytizing business anyhow, generally speaking. But what this means is that we really don't have to do anything but sit back and watch our numbers increase all on their own and be excellent human beings. Every time we say "we're not like those Jedi", we're kicking our already-miniscule membership numbers in the face and essentially telling curious people that we aren't at all what they want in their lives before they even know what we're about.

That's why it makes me sad.

Steamboat.....Yes. *nod of respect* I've no further word to add save. Yes.^

Or as we used to say back in the old days

+1

I feel, we are only what we are, both on an individual basis, and on a whole. I am a part of the community known as real world Jedi. However, I am just Ethan. I have many sources of inspiration both fictional and non-fictional. I will not try to speak for nor flat represent the entire community since I am only one member in it. So, whether or not this group uses one particular source of inspiration or another, or none at all, does not concern me. We all have other sources of inspiration other than just Jedi and those sources are always present in one way or another. We can acknowledge our inspiration from Star Wars, but we can also acknowledge our inspiration from whatever else we each personally derive that inspiration from. It makes no difference. However, I feel none of you should be neither ashamed nor attached to any one source, such as Jedi. It is meant as a loose reference, picked as a personal choice, representing a deeper reference to simply "the hero" in every individual, as part of a larger story we all comprise. At the end of the day, do whatever you want to do with the terms and labels. Just don't let yourself be insecure about it in either manner.

Do we have less of a right to create and define non-fictional Jedi as George Lucas had to create and define fictional Jedi?

What does distancing ourselves from the fiction mean?

Good morning, from Japan, everyone

First off, I really have to say, Steam, that was bloody brilliant! You've put into words everything I (and I'm quite certain many others) would love to adroitly say, with all avalable pertinence. That just comletely rocked socks - well thought and said, Good Sir!

But yeah, on the topic of distancing ourselves and from what... it seems, in my very humble opinion, that we might just be using the wrong word here - we don't want to distance ourself from the *fiction*. The fiction represents Lucas' efforts to combine all (or at least many) of the Earth's philosophies, and to perhaps a somewhat vague extent, sense of theologies, into a single story in order to rekindle the spark of wonder and curiosity into such things in the youth (of all ages) of his audience (reference; his interview, found in the Temple curriculum). The source is actually from everywhere, once dissected. The beauty, before dissection, is in the presentation as a universal thing which, like the Force itself, can bind us all together.

So, not the *fiction* (which represents the multitude of, what many would deem, *realities* of our world's philosophies/theologies/cultures), but the *FANDOM*.

Star Wars serves as an excellent *parable* for our faith, yes? It needn't only be seen as something that drew us together under a one name for all, but can also be seen as the tool of teaching - not as though a bible per se, of course - but a parable, or set of parables, certainly.

So again, I say - it isn't the fiction, which serves us no real ill, but Good - it's the fandom that we should be distanced from.

After all, the fandom is no evil thing in and of itself, but it is the image of the cosplaying movie fan which is the bane of our striving to maintain any apparent validity to claim seriousness in our image as sincere and serious devotees to what we follow and represent.

So it would seem to me, that while we distance ourselves from the fandom, and ultimately, it's most extreme form, what here in Japan is known as "otaku", which merits shunning, the fiction, which was purposefully created to aid inspiration, is something which even merits embracing.

Tarran wrote: After all, the fandom is no evil thing in and of itself, but it is the image of the cosplaying movie fan which is the bane of our striving to maintain any apparent validity to claim seriousness in our image as sincere and serious devotees to what we follow and represent.

I would completely dissagree. People look at the fandom as fakes and people playing about with no real purpose. If you think this...then you really do not know or understand the heart of those who are "Fans"

Look at the 501st and the Rebel Legeon's - Both of which takes the "Fandom" of star wars the greatest of levels and have not only served the offline charitable community more than ANY of the online religious movements can stake claim to. But they have inspired millions to not be fearful of being who they are.

I am a Fan. I am a Role Player. I wear Costumes. And I want to construct my own lightsaber. All of these are who I am and I enjoy it very very much......Does it make me any less a Jedi? :dry:

Tarran wrote: After all, the fandom is no evil thing in and of itself, but it is the image of the cosplaying movie fan which is the bane of our striving to maintain any apparent validity to claim seriousness in our image as sincere and serious devotees to what we follow and represent.

True. That said, I also believe that there is a place for a Jedi to also be a member of that fandom--actively, complete with cheesy cosplay at movie premieres or conventions--provided that it be noted whenever possible that the two are
s e p a r a t e
aspects of that individual's lifestyle, and do not rely on each other to exist.

Kitsu Tails wrote: Look at the 501st and the Rebel Legeon's - Both of which takes the "Fandom" of star wars the greatest of levels and have not only served the offline charitable community more than ANY of the online religious movements can stake claim to. But they have inspired millions to not be fearful of being who they are.

I am a Fan. I am a Role Player. I wear Costumes. And I want to construct my own lightsaber. All of these are who I am and I enjoy it very very much......Does it make me any less a Jedi? :dry:

This exactly. There is too much charity work being done by "roleplayers" for them to be discounted out-of-hand, and they are super, super, stupidly visible. This combination of things means they are not inherently bad, and we shouldn't smear them. Some of us want to be considered distinct and distant from that, and that's fine, but if that's what we want we're going to have to step up our own game quite a bit to "compete" for Public Image Points with these groups that are doing ridiculously good deeds all over the place, or start directly supporting them or efforts like theirs on our own.

Also, I'm an intelligent, critical-thinking Jedi by the Order's definition.

But I also finally have Qui-Gon hair, and ain't nobody gonna tell me I can't put on some shabby beige robes or I'll get disowned.

edit :

Br. John wrote: Do we have less of a right to create and define non-fictional Jedi as George Lucas had to create and define fictional Jedi?

Yes. That's exactly what it means, because that word is a legally protected trademark of the Walt Disney Corporation, and therefore, as such, any discussion of Jedi in any context, fictional or not, that falls under the purview of that trademark is directly out of our hands. This includes spiritual training and teaching, which are a huge part of the fictional Jedi Order in-universe, unless the trademark documentation specifically says otherwise.

steamboat28 wrote:

Edan wrote: I thought it was quite a thoughtful discussion, although the constant quoting from the films shows there is a long way to go before we will be considered a religion separated from the fiction..

I've said this pretty often before, but I don't think we ever will be. Not unless we change our name. And that's not a bad thing at all, honestly.

Agreed. I'm studying to become an independent diplomat (by that I mean I don't intend to represent a specific country) and I get the feeling that were I to try and introduce myself to some delegates (someday) as a Jedi that nothing I said after that would be taken seriously. I think as long as we're called Jedi people will associate us with the fiction.

That's not to say I'd want to be completely divorced from the fiction. It has its benefits.

Here's a wacky thought: instead of bemoaning the fact that we're Jedi who won't be taken seriously because we're Jedi, why don't we wear the title as a namebadge while doing things that will make people take Jedi seriously?

I mean, I know it's a little out in left field, but...