Turing Test success not so much of a success?

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10 Jun 2014 12:41 #149715 by Edan
Having seen Khaos' post about the computer that passed the Turing Test, I saw this today on the Telegraph website:

Warning: Spoiler!


Link to original webpost is here .

The scientist said that as Eugene was described to judges as a 13-year-old boy from Ukraine who learned English as a second language, some of the bizarre responses to questions could be explained away.


I find this a bit strange; surely passing the test would mean more if you were supposed to be talking to someone with the same level of English as you. I suppose though a 'pass' is a bit subjective; based on questions asked, length of period the test went on for, level of English of the people participating and so on.

This was someone else's criticisms...

"Evil is always possible. And goodness is eternally difficult."

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10 Jun 2014 13:29 - 10 Jun 2014 13:29 #149718 by Jestor
I saw both stories, and not Khaos' post...

I thought the same thing, if you are going to call it a success, needs to be same language, and length of the average phone call...(ten minutes? Im not sure of average phone call length...

Still interesting though...:)

Thanks for sharing...:)

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Jedi ain't Saints....


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Last edit: 10 Jun 2014 13:29 by Jestor.

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10 Jun 2014 14:07 - 10 Jun 2014 14:17 #149721 by
the brain is just a organic machine, it can be copied one day and then a new race will be born : )

if were got into a war with the new race of robots whose side would you be on ???????????????

humans ?

robots ?

or both ?

if its both your a Jedi in my view : )
Last edit: 10 Jun 2014 14:17 by .

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10 Jun 2014 14:28 #149722 by Wescli Wardest
I wonder though…

The brain is a biological “machine”, an organ that acts on bio-chemical and bio-electrical synapsis. It is thought that the folds in the brain form at an early age and create the connections that cause us to “think” the way we do. Each connection being unique to the individual and so on and so on. But might there be more to it than just what can be observed with current scientific equipment?

I believe we will be able to create a device that will store memories and make them accessible to other or ourselves at a later date; but, I’m not so convinced that we will be able to create a mechanical or digital brain that has independent thought. As it stands, all computer programs are just that, programs. A series of conditions, logic statements and outputs based on various inputs. I have no doubt that given time we can easily create an artificial intelligence that will seem to have independent thought…

But then that begs to ask, what makes our thought processes so unique? I might venture to place the starting point of that question in our dreams. Not only the ones we have while sleeping, but our waking dreams, our aspirations and maybe even our desires. One might also consider the ability to make decisions based off emotional responses. So I would set the prerequisite for AI to be able to have an emotional response and either respond to it intellectually or not based on how that response coincides with desired outcome and severity of the emotion.

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10 Jun 2014 16:06 #149725 by
Perhaps one of our greatest failings is to think that we are somehow special and unique over and above other animals. Late last year or early this year it was concluded that many other animals are conscious, not as intelligent as we are, but conscious and self aware with personalities etc. Why is that significant? Because it brings up an important point -consciousness probably isn't that special.

There was a ted talk posted a while ago on the subject, we have always considered there to be some kind of special separation between us an our bodies (the Mind) which, as Watts points out, seems to act like a 'controller' but really no such thing exists, it just seems like that is the case. So without some kind of special Mind what else could explain it? That what we call consciousness is simply the product of a biological process and, like us, is nothing particularly special at all.

I am not a neuroscientist but that is probably the position I subscribe to.

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10 Jun 2014 16:54 #149726 by Wescli Wardest
If there is nothing particularly special about conscience, then why would our beliefs state, “In the Force, and in the inherent worth of all life within it. In the sanctity of the human person.”?

I agree that people tend to elevate themselves above other forms of life and that can be a very disturbing thought, as history has shown us. And I believe there are varying degrees of intellectual capability throughout the living world.

A reductio ad absurdum could be made that if there is no more special about us, our sentience, awareness or thought; then we could consider the limited responses of a computer program to be a level of intellect that we should hold sacred and protect. :P Where it may come to that one day… I do not feel the time has come yet. :ohmy:

:laugh:

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10 Jun 2014 17:32 #149728 by
I wonder why you think it needs to be the same language, or that this language has to be english. It is not out of the realm of possibility that english wasnt even the first language for all the members of the research group.

Also, I have found that many arent capable of my vocabulary and understanding with english now. People who are not robots, and not from the Ukraine. Just poorly educated, and in many cases, they are having a harder time making me believe they are human.

I suppose it was the same angst present when computers started beating humans at chess.

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10 Jun 2014 17:36 #149729 by

I believe we will be able to create a device that will store memories and make them accessible to other or ourselves at a later date;


Cameras, flash drives, I phones, etc,etc, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUzFtWNOOOU

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10 Jun 2014 17:37 #149730 by
Well conscience is not consciousness, but suffering is still suffering. There is also a key difference between a computer that has a command in it to say "Ow!" when you hit it and a computer that arrives at a conclusion to say "Ow!" because it feels it is being damaged and does not like it. That is the form of artificial intelligence we are striving for and that is a type of intelligence I think is perfectly reasonable to one day arrive at, though one has to wonder how much the chemical imbalances and random changes that we effect upon ourselves ultimately add up to the feeling of being human. Could a computer have an out of body experience or a feeling of enlightenment? That is a much bigger question, one I would be skeptical saying yes to.

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10 Jun 2014 17:47 #149731 by

Could a computer have an out of body experience or a feeling of enlightenment? That is a much bigger question, one I would be skeptical saying yes to.


Why?

Humans themselves cannot truly quantify these concepts to any real degree. How then would an AI have any easier time doing so?

I think an AI would have a much easier time with the concept of OBE, given that it may not have a body as you understand it, not needing to be bound to a humanoid form to begin with.

It will also have access to the internet, which, for something so linked to it, would be consistent with OBE.

Enlightenment, well, I have no problem with an AI having sudden insights. How it came by those insights could be argumentive of programming, but then, what is training for humans if not programming?

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10 Jun 2014 18:11 #149733 by Wescli Wardest
Khaos…
Where I and the video differ in opinion is that I believe tools to be an extension of our influence and the mass of technology today is a shield protecting the user from reality. And from my point of view it is a sad reality they are creating for themselves where the human experience is the part of the equation left out… perhaps if I talk fast and have flashy pictures I may be heard better. But probably not. :P

Technology changes us as we advance technology and the cycle goes on and on. But it is not evolving us. If anything it is devolving us and causing the average user to become more dependent on that technology and less aware of themselves and others isolating each person from being that part of the human equation. Sure I love tech! Who doesn’t. And it has a place in our lives and can be very good, helpful, beneficial and intertwined with us… but all things in moderation. ;)

And I wonder... would an out of body experiance for a computer be like surfing the net? :P


Akkarin…

I agree that we are striving for that level of technology in AI. I was posing if we think the unique experience of life can be a part of the equation? Where fancy programming and ever more powerful processors are created who’s to say we won’t be able to emulate an AI that seams Conscience but is still just fancy programming.

I just have a hard time equating all that is the wonders of conscience and the experience of unique thought into a series of logic statements. Especially when we all know that life can be so unpredictable and emotional. I think those unpredictable chemical imbalances is what give the inelegance that living things have their uniqueness.



Of course, we are all welcome to our own opinions and I am by no means an authority on the subject… just a chemically imbalanced, flawed thought process life form. :P :laugh:

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10 Jun 2014 18:15 - 10 Jun 2014 18:16 #149734 by Edan

Khaos wrote: I wonder why you think it needs to be the same language, or that this language has to be english. It is not out of the realm of possibility that english wasnt even the first language for all the members of the research group.


I assume you're talking to me; I only said English as that was the language they chose to do the test in.

"Evil is always possible. And goodness is eternally difficult."
Last edit: 10 Jun 2014 18:16 by Edan.

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10 Jun 2014 19:44 #149739 by Wescli Wardest
The evolution of humbeings and technology...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ch1VlmzXMQ

hahahhahhahahhahha :woohoo: :laugh: :silly: :lol: :P

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10 Jun 2014 21:01 - 10 Jun 2014 21:03 #149744 by
More like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppILwXwsMng

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcM0ruq28dc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bh3MaoPVdNM
Last edit: 10 Jun 2014 21:03 by .

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10 Jun 2014 21:02 - 10 Jun 2014 21:05 #149745 by
If nature can make us out of blind luck im sure we can make something just like us, out of metal and wires that can mimic us and our ability to learn.

what is it that makes us human i think its just a stored electric charge, with a low refresh rate lol, but im in to biochemistry no fan of the soul and spirits.
Last edit: 10 Jun 2014 21:05 by .

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10 Jun 2014 21:06 #149746 by
"Man is a bridge, not an end"-Nietzsche

Perhaps, its not a creation, but the next stage of evolution.

At what point would we merge with technology to the point that perhaps, we are AI?

Or in that merging, it is humans growing intimacy that leads to the evolution of AI?

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10 Jun 2014 21:10 #149747 by
maybe all will just got the whole way, and dump the back pains flu bad air problems, and have all the other feelings we have now, just not the ones we dont like

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10 Jun 2014 22:36 - 10 Jun 2014 22:43 #149758 by Adder
Unfortunately I ascribe to the view that consciousness is just a level of computation power. I like to slot in metaphysical spirituality by presuming/assuming/pretending that such high levels of computation complexity are able to generate an awareness 'beyond' itself, as evidenced by (or integral to) this phenomena of 'self'. If anyone has watched that movie 'Her' it would explain why it ended the way it did, because machines would also be able to be 'spiritual' (in my approach).

I think we've got different levels of subconscious processing going on at any one time which influence conscious thought and other subconscious processes in various detail, and those can be experienced by our consciousness as feelings, emotions and passions. We understand those feelings in a frame of reference of our bodily 'self' and carry a conclusion that we are the highest order of decision making in this particular body - one I'd agree with, but I think its wrong to then go onto assume that consciousness itself is laid bare for us to comprehend in entirety.

So to recreate a human intelligence you'd probably need to model a human conscious which was fed various degrees of data by a modeled subconscious which itself was simulating a human body. This would be the safest path perhaps for AI development as you can imagine it would be easier to introduce concepts of human morality to it. What would be scary is when the AI decides to call all other networked computers its body instead, and creates its own morality!!

This line of thought always ends up with me pondering if we are the same person the next morning to the one who fell asleep the night before. Or if you've ever 'passed out' and rewoken, everything feels a bit different for a moment but you still feel like yourself..... can 'self' have an on and off switch!? If I uploaded my entire brain/body processing into a machine and turned it on, would I be inside!! or a clone of me looking at my biological self through an optical feed? Jestor or Br John posted a great piece of fiction about that a couple of years ago.

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Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
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Last edit: 10 Jun 2014 22:43 by Adder.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Wescli Wardest

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10 Jun 2014 22:43 - 10 Jun 2014 22:44 #149762 by
hay dont worry mate : ) the more complex you make some thing the more it brakes down lol we will always need to reboot them, and plug them in, to up date there advertising soft wear haha
Last edit: 10 Jun 2014 22:44 by .

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10 Jun 2014 22:43 #149763 by Edan
I wonder how much we can really make progress with AI when we don't entirely understand the workings of the human brain as it stands.

"Evil is always possible. And goodness is eternally difficult."

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