God and the Devil

Whyte Horse wrote: haha I love this topic because everyone can relate to it through their prior experiences with religion. god=good, devil=bad. So now I can tell you all what is good and what is bad:
Good:
1. Sex with animals - god said so
2. Killing people - god said so
Bad:
1. Sharing - Satan loves this
2. Love - Satan likes this

People said god said so. People said satin likes this. Some people believe they were inspired by god/satan. I think their are attempts to undestand and explain stuff.

that's not how magnets work.

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that's not how magnets work.

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!

Gisteron wrote:

that's not how magnets work.

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!

I still don't understand what you mean?

Rickie wrote: God and the Devil are a magnet. United as one, polar opposites, attract diffferently and one would not exist without the other.

I am going to do something here...
Just for fun.
I was raised by a Mormon and a Catholic who allowed me to pick my own path.
So I've decided to approach this from a Mormon viewpoint just for fun and, possibly, educational purposes. These are not my own beliefs and I am not Mormon myself. I won't bash the religion in any way, either, I'm simply going to state a view from that standpoint. I hope this makes sense and can be fun...

God and the Devil aren't opposites as Lucifer is God's actual son just as Jesus is God's actual son.
Jesus and Lucifer are brothers.
I mean this in a way that they are actually brothers and God is their father, just how families are here on Earth.
In that regard, Jesus and God are not the same person, they are only one in the sense that their purpose is the same.
Lucifer, however, was cast into "Hell" after he came up with an idea to get us back to God (spiritually and physically). His idea was that instead of having free agency and the ability to choose good or bad, we would simply not have a choice and would always do good.
Edit: I forgot to add that since Lucifer came up with this idea he wanted all the glory to be given to himself and not to God - which is what made God mad enough to cast him out.

So, according to all of that, Lucifer isn't a necessity except to give us someone to tempt us and lead us astray. Not that we don't do good enough a job of that on our own, of course. He's just there for extra support in doing all the bad things and making us feel awful about it when we do. Mormon theology also teaches that this is the way it's been done before and will continue to be done forever. As in - the world God lived on when he was mortal also had a Satan-type and his god before that, etc.

Phew.
I hope no one has any questions about any of this. haha

I'm not sure if I believe in a god or devil anymore. My belief lines up more with Buddhism. I believe in the big bounce theory, a cycle of life eternal. I believe our energies never die and return to the force for rebirth, in this universe or the next. I believe good and evil have consequences, in this life or the next. I don't think any cosmic forces or divine forces try to win our devotion. I think our consequences derive from or cohesion, or lack of, with our world. The more conflict you cause with it, the more negative feedback you receive.

JLSpinner wrote: I'm not sure if I believe in a god or devil anymore. My belief lines up more with Buddhism. I believe in the big bounce theory, a cycle of life eternal. I believe our energies never die and return to the force for rebirth, in this universe or the next. I believe good and evil have consequences, in this life or the next. I don't think any cosmic forces or divine forces try to win our devotion. I think our consequences derive from or cohesion, or lack of, with our world. The more conflict you cause with it, the more negative feedback you receive.

Yup. Exactly. Buddhism has a great many wisdoms that we can all benefit from. I lived in a Theravada Buddhist society for 4 yrs. It was enlightening, to say the least. Here's a photo from the bloodless revolution that overthrew the gov't there:

Without trying to defend western faiths, it is still hard to argue that Buddhism is in many ways superior. It of course, like any other, makes grand assertions about the nature of things without any shred of evidence, so it is by no means better at that, yet it is also little more sophisticated in its morality and in my opinion indeed less moral overall, incredible though that may sound... I could explain why, but that would get us even more off-topic, so I shan't until prompted.

Jesus and Lucifer are brothers.

Oh HELL no. Jesus was God's "only begotten son". Lucifer was an angel (one among many) who wanted to take over. If Lucifer was God's son, then so were all the other angels.[/quote]

Again, according to LDS theology, "only begotten" means that he was the only son born in flesh.
And yes, all the angles are Gods children, including you and I. We are the "spirit" brothers and sisters of Jesus, Lucifer, and each and every person who has ever or will ever live.
That is why they refer to one another as "brother" and "sister" at their church services.

Streen wrote:

steamboat28 wrote: Prior to that, if we look at the Book of Job ... Satan is as his name implies, just God's District Attorney. Nothing more.

If that's what you think, you missed the point of the book of Job.

In the book, Job was very pious, worshiped God with his entire being. Satan wanted to prove that if he took away everything he had, that Job would stop worshiping God. God GAVE SATAN PERMISSION to ruin Job's life. Fortunately, Job proved Satan wrong and Job continued to worship God even after his family was killed and his possessions lost. So you see, God USES Satan.

Seems an awful lot like god USED Job, taking away everything that could ever mean anything to him just to prove a point to a subordinate. Which was a jerktastic thing to do to someone who loves you. Like making Abraham go through that whole thing where he was forcing him to kill Isaac to prove he loved him. Can we even say how craptacular and sadistic that was? I would NEVER do that to someone who loved me. Don't even get me started on making women marry men who raped them, stoning disobedient children... his armies being told of their opponents, to "kill all of men, women, children and animals", but the virgins were free to have as a "prize" and be "used later"...

If that god is "all there is" as you say, I'd rather not.

God and Satan are not polar opposites. God is all there is. Satan was just one of God's creations. An angel, who fell, and roams existence causing trouble. He is not omnipresent, omnipotent, or omniscient. But God is.

And yet, I still like Lucifer better. I'd have rebelled against the idea of some dumb humans being loved more than me and given all of the attention too, especially when the only thing I was ever made to do was love god, obey and humbly serve him FOREVER, and the stupid humans don't even pay attention to god (even after he'd given them EVERYTHING THEY COULD EVER NEED OR WANT) most of the time with their "free will". The angels were true to life companions to god. We are like hamsters sleeping in our own bed of pee soaked shredded paper, looking at the finger instead of what it's pointing at.

So yeah, if I were Lucifer I'd be pissed off too.

Seems I'm not the one that missed the point of Job.

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Gisteron wrote: Without trying to defend western faiths, it is still hard to argue that Buddhism is in many ways superior. It of course, like any other, makes grand assertions about the nature of things without any shred of evidence, so it is by no means better at that, yet it is also little more sophisticated in its morality and in my opinion indeed less moral overall, incredible though that may sound... I could explain why, but that would get us even more off-topic, so I shan't until prompted.

And I love You for your reply. I was raised Baptist, on the path to ministry. I love the message of Christ, to live in absolute love of everyone. He's truly still a beautiful inspiration to emulate.

Streen wrote:

steamboat28 wrote: Prior to that, if we look at the Book of Job ... Satan is as his name implies, just God's District Attorney. Nothing more.

If that's what you think, you missed the point of the book of Job.

So in other words understanding one tangentially important relationship between two characters in a story differently than you do amounts to fundamentally misunderstanding the entire point of the story. You know, were it not for what you are about to say, I might be inclined to have more patience for you lecturing people on matters of literary analysis. But I don't, because shortly afterward you go on to produce this:

Job was an example for Christian's [sic] to follow.

Alright, enough with the family-friendly passive-aggressive sarcasm now. This is just bullshit and I have no kinder way of putting it. The book of Job is one of the oldest texts of the Tanach. I'm not sure how old the story itself is but the version we are familiar with predates Christianity by over half a millennium and that is a trivial thing to look up so you have no excuse.

The event wasn't Satan's creation, it was God's plan to show us how to follow Him.

God was bragging to Satan about how much of a sucker Job was. Satan told God to basically put his money where his mouth is. God went along with it. People died, others suffered. But fortunately, because nothing else matters to him, God won the bet and lest the unimportant human know he was just a toy in God's little game God came down to give a grand might-makes-right speech. And this "whatever happens to you, suck it up" is what the story teaches, rather unambiguously. Oh, and a story it is, not an "event".

... So you see, God USES Satan.

Yes, he uses Satan to prove a point to Satan. My spoon also uses me to feed me.

Jesus and Lucifer are brothers.

Oh HELL no. Jesus was God's "only begotten son". Lucifer was an angel (one among many) who wanted to take over. If Lucifer was God's son, then so were all the other angels.

Again, according to LDS theology, "only begotten" means that he was the only son born in flesh.
And yes, all the angles are Gods children, including you and I. We are the "spirit" brothers and sisters of Jesus, Lucifer, and each and every person who has ever or will ever be.
That is why they refer to one another as "brother" and "sister" at their church services.

Gisteron wrote: Without trying to defend western faiths, it is still hard to argue that Buddhism is in many ways superior. It of course, like any other, makes grand assertions about the nature of things without any shred of evidence, so it is by no means better at that, yet it is also little more sophisticated in its morality and in my opinion indeed less moral overall, incredible though that may sound... I could explain why, but that would get us even more off-topic, so I shan't until prompted.

You might be surprised how much influence buddhism has had on the jedi code... You might want to research the Eight Fold Path and the Four Noble Truths , if you haven't already.

Oh, I'm well aware of that, Whyte Horse. To read and write about it was part of the IP back when I did it. Now were these influences the creators of the Jedi Code used? I don't know, maybe. Doesn't much seem like it, but then I guess one can twist it anyhow to fit. At the end of the day, association doesn't matter, in my opinion; it doesn't make anything either bad or beneficial by itself. I have no commitment to any label that would be strong enough for me to suspend my moral senses or any kind of thinking for it.
In other words: Let's say Jediism has a significant portion of its roots in Buddhism. Now what?

We are the "spirit" brothers and sisters

PERIOD!

I like this.

Edan wrote:

Rickie wrote: God and the Devil are a magnet. United as one, polar opposites, attract diffferently and one would not exist without the other.

God did exist without the devil originally... the creation of the devil was due to an oversight by God.. (if we're talking Christian myth here). (From my viewing of it.)

Isaiah 45:7King James Version (KJV)
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

This bible verse goes well with the Taoist belief of "there is nothing but the Tao (The Force/God/The Source) which is formless & nameless--all forms of polarization (such as light and dark, good and evil etc) are but parts of the one Source (Force/Tao/God).

As someone who prefers non-theistic Satanism over any brand of christianity, all I can say is that it seems more likely that Jehova/Yahweh and Lucifer were alien overlords than the idea that the biblical god is a representation of what is Good.

The only character I do love in the Bible is Jesus. But to truly follow Jesus you would have to dismiss the temper-tantrum persona of God in the Old Testament.

Manu wrote: As someone who prefers non-theistic Satanism over any brand of christianity, all I can say is that it seems more likely that Jehova/Yahweh and Lucifer were alien overlords than the idea that the biblical god is a representation of what is Good.

I find it a bit strange that this is what you think is more likely (and me as a non-theistic satanist too).

People can make representations of what they like... and for some God is 'Good'.

Mostly I think as I've always done, that the bible is a set of (sometimes questionable) parables... and the story of Lucifer's downfall is probably a representation of a historical event/set of events from one person's perspective.