The grayness of Faith

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10 years 1 month ago #141509 by
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A friend linked me to an interesting article this morning:

Warning: Spoiler!

This is the epistemological assumption looming in the so-called “culture war” between the caricatures of godless liberals and Bible-thumping conservatives in America: One group wields rational argumentation and intellectual history as an indictment of God, while the other looks to tradition and text as defenses against modernity’s encroachment on religious life.

The problem is, the “culture war” is a false construct created by politicians and public intellectuals, left and right. The state of faith in the world is much grayer, much humbler, and much less divided than atheist academics and preaching politicians claim. Especially in the U.S., social conservatives are often called out in the media for reifying and inflaming this cultural divide: The rhetoric of once and future White House hopefuls like Rick Santorum, Sarah Palin, and Bobby Jindal reinforces an “us” and “them” distinction between those with faith and those without. Knowing God helps them live and legislate in the “right” way, they say.

But vocal atheists reinforce this binary of Godly vs. godless, too—the argument is just not as obvious. Theirs is a subtle assertion: Believers aren’t educated or thoughtful enough to debunk God, and if they only knew more, rational evidence would surely offset faith.


I thought it might be an interesting thing to discuss. Do you feel that there is a sharp distinction between the secular, atheistic view and a faith-based one? It all cuts to the heart of humanity's ongoing epistemological debate about the nature of knowledge and faith.

I come from a secular background where faith did not form part of my worldview, beyond some very neglected and essentially undeveloped notions which fall into the Taoist (and now Jedi) brackets. I believed that science could give us a working model of the universe and faith was an unnecessary human construct overlaid on that. As I grow and learn more, I see the importance of faith, the authenticity of acknowledging that it's there whether it appears rational or not, and the phenomenologically-integrated understanding that we only find the universe in situ - we're never as detached or isolated from it as we would need to be to assert complete scientific objectivity. We are always an observer, at least.

Anyway. Thought it might be of interest. Is the debate between Atheists and Believers as contrived as the quote above suggests? Do we only feel entrenched in our positions because walls have been built up, black and white, when in fact the reality is more of a spectrum with most of us at a certain shade of gray? Does the fact peoples views can change suggest anything about the true nature of faith and doubt? Is faith a lack of knowledge, and is knowledge a lack of faith? Or can the two go hand in hand..?

Lots of questions. Hopefully some opinions will follow :whistle:

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10 years 1 month ago #141520 by
Replied by on topic The grayness of Faith
I haven't read that book, but I agree with the article-writer's analysis of the general premise.

Do you feel that there is a sharp distinction between the secular, atheistic view and a faith-based one?


You know, I'm sure there is one. In my experience, living on a college campus, I see that distinction very clearly. At my age, people are finally getting to explore their beliefs on their own. Many have moved out of their parents' houses, and are able to surround themselves with people they agree with. So, a lot of these people are the "thinkers" the article talks about. They read Plato and John Locke... and they glean atheistic humanitarian ethics from people like Marcus Aurelius (which I find humorous) and Pope Francis. People will think and dissect almost anything. Give them the Bible, and they will try to put it into historical context. They will try to form definitions. "Creationism means: God Made the World in Six Days, and Rested on the Seventh". They might spend time trying to make Christianity into a Science. I read an entire book on the science of Genesis. It was insane...

My point is, I think it's less of a divide between Believers and Non-Believers. But, rather, the Thinkers and the Non-Thinkers.

The Thinkers can be deeply "religious". They might spend their time collecting scriptures and cataloging them based on topic. They might debate the usefulness of tithing, and come up with reasons why you should give up more or less for Lent. They might take pride in their texts, and debate the atheists till the cows come home with fairly sound logic (given the topic's milieu).

And, Non-Thinkers can be deeply "Atheistic". They might just accept what their best friends tell them in college. Imagine you're an impressionable 18-year-old. You move into a dorm, and there are people Preaching the Word of Nietzsche. It sounds terribly smart! So, they go to get Saved! "Ah yes! When I die there will be nothing! Nothing! I will fade into existence!" And, then they cry out to Ayn Rand for mercy: "Save me, Ayn Rand! Give me the power to crush my opponents."

:laugh:

I mean, you just have to laugh at it. I only point this out because I think the article assumes it is either Atheist-thinker or Believer-stupid.

It can be the other way around, too.

Like you asked, faith and knowledge can go hand in hand.

I imagine there is no correct answer. Rather, it is a spectrum of answers. I lie somewhere in the middle... I have some faith that reminds me every day that the universe is too large for me to comprehend. And, my small little world of "thinking" is foolish and has to go.

Because, thinking is for the limited. Our Awareness can rise to a level much higher than our minds can. But, we have to think to function. It is a tool. The goal is: Don't let the tool run you. :)

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10 years 1 month ago #141571 by steamboat28
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10 years 1 month ago #141584 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic The grayness of Faith

tzb wrote: Is the debate between Atheists and Believers as contrived as the quote above suggests?


I would not say it is entirely like that, but yes I'd guess that fall's within the spectrum of it.

tzb wrote: Do we only feel entrenched in our positions because walls have been built up, black and white, when in fact the reality is more of a spectrum with most of us at a certain shade of gray?


Yep!! I guess so.

tzb wrote: Does the fact peoples views can change suggest anything about the true nature of faith and doubt?


It could represent aspects of where the faith emerged. High order personal experiences can forge a hardened faith, but I think it's human nature to model things in different scenario's and so constantly reassess their actions and beliefs at least on some level.

tzb wrote: Is faith a lack of knowledge, and is knowledge a lack of faith? Or can the two go hand in hand..?


I'd generally say faith exists across secular, atheism and religious - just with different targets with different extents of reach. By 'reach' I mean that I think faith operates as a set of rules to enable decision making to be simplified... within a certain scope of applicability.

I have faith my cars brakes are going to work because they just did and have demonstrated continued function under normal conditions - so I might drive with less safety margin in regard to stopping the vehicle by other means. As a result of that faith, I rely on them and so do not consider how much room would I need to do a hand brake skid or use the transmission to slow the car down in the event of a brake failure. That is a low level faith in regards to reach.

A radical belief might take some thousands of year book as literal and timeless truth and use it to shape all/most of their decision making. This would seemingly be an exercise in memory more then actual thought!!

High reach faith's influence more and more of a person's character, and these can seemingly even be destructive and/or uplifting, because they sometimes can zombie out people by reducing that natural capacity to analyze and question.

That type of faith becomes evident with they start delegating authority of their actions to their faith - why not if afterall it is what is setting the parameters for their actions. This personification amplifies any use of human identity in the spirituality because it is being dragged into the human experience. So perhaps the concept of using human 'Gods' does reinforce high reach faiths!? That could make the spectrum even more complex as a persons faith is tied into their life's success and failures!!

So I think it is entirely shades of grey, to the extent each person is unique.

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
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10 years 1 month ago #141685 by
Replied by on topic The grayness of Faith
This is such a diverse and nuanced topic, I just don't know where to start.

...perhaps, the tenuous distinction between forms of knowing and being. Atheists, the faithful religious, and scientists all posit an objectivism differing only in what is considered to be the objective truth. Science is true because its methodology is self affirming; the religious have their mythic truth with its authoritative objectivity; and atheists can operate in either epistemology.

It is all shades of gray, except when it is black and white.

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10 years 1 month ago #141736 by
Replied by on topic The grayness of Faith
William Clifford's 'Rule for Reasonable People' from The Ethics of Belief (1877)

"Belief is desecrated when given to unproved and unquestioned statements for the solace and private pleasure of the believer...Whoso would deserve well of his fellows in this matter will guard the purity of his belief with a very fanaticism of jealous care, lest at any time it should rest on an unworthy object, and catch a stain which can never be wiped away...If [a] belief has been accepted on insufficient evidence [even if the belief is true] the pleasure is a stolen one...It is sinful because it is stolen in defiance of our duty to mankind. That duty is to guard ourselves from such beliefs as from a pestilence which may shortly master our own body and then spread to the rest of the town...It is wrong always, everywhere, and for every one, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence."

For me, the first follow-on question that arises from Clifford's statement is, "What constitutes sufficient evidence?"

Secondly, upon what evidence can any deontological duty be found and is it really objective? Are not also the evidential foundation of the ethics of duty and the sufficient criteria of adequate evidence themselves merely another form of belief?

Truth and understanding are contextual. Facts change and so then does the evidence. Science is itself a belief system based upon sufficient evidence that changes with new discoveries which are not really new discoveries but only another version explaining what is considered to be reality at the time. When our knowledge changes, so also does reality.

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