Sith

@xiam
Same concept follows... why call yourself a "Christian"? Your really just a roleplayer of the character of christ.

From all I've read of your posts to this thread, so far, Zealot, you've done little research to back up these claims you keep making. It seems as if you're making assumption after assumption, based solely on your perception of things you are ignorant about. Or, maybe you have only read things but haven't actually interacted with sith to close that gap. What I get from your posts is conjecture.

"We don't really believe in Satan, just the glorification of the self." Then why call yourselves Satanists?
"Those vampires in movies are fiction, we aren't really undead." Then why call yourselves vampires?
"Sure, the Sith are blatantly evil and lead an Empire of rule by fear, racism against non-human species, and ruthless force, throwing an entire galaxy into imbalance, but we're nothing like them!" Then why call yourselves Sith?

This is exactly what I was trying to say. You did a great job putting it into a coherent argument.

I don't feel like the Sith here are "true Sith" because they don't really take it seriously. I sense it is more of a fan club, idolizing the Sith. Then when I talk about the Sith code and how these behavior patterns result in disaster and suffering they act like I'm beating up on them. It's not even about them. It's about 2+2=4. We don't have to guess at what it means to be a Sith or what the result is. The mythologies of the movies give us multiple examples.

I'll give you another example. If someone says "I'm a sexist" guess what? I'm going to assume that they do the things that sexists do. If they say "HI, I'm a racist" I'm going to assume that they do what racists do. There is absolutely no reason to redefine any of these things to fit what people think they are. We grapple with people having legitimate reasons for identifying with a different gender. But you know what I don't like? I don't like when guys act like what they think women act like when real women don't act like that. They create a caricature of femininity. And ultimately, it's not feminine. It's an imitation. Likewise, imo we're dealing with imitation Sith... which is NOT BAD... because do we really want real Sith running around here? But at the same time I think they spread a watered down ideology of both the Jedi and Sith with a leaning towards Gray Jedi because they're trying to combine everything they like into one. But it doesn't work like that. The Jedi is the way it is in order to prevent the corruption that comes with having access to so much power. The Sith is the way it is because of its corruption. They think they can have the power of the Sith without the discipline of the Jedi and not be corrupted by it.

ZealotX wrote:

"We don't really believe in Satan, just the glorification of the self." Then why call yourselves Satanists?
"Those vampires in movies are fiction, we aren't really undead." Then why call yourselves vampires?
"Sure, the Sith are blatantly evil and lead an Empire of rule by fear, racism against non-human species, and ruthless force, throwing an entire galaxy into imbalance, but we're nothing like them!" Then why call yourselves Sith?

This is exactly what I was trying to say. You did a great job putting it into a coherent argument.

I don't feel like the Sith here are "true Sith" because they don't really take it seriously. I sense it is more of a fan club, idolizing the Sith. Then when I talk about the Sith code and how these behavior patterns result in disaster and suffering they act like I'm beating up on them. It's not even about them. It's about 2+2=4. We don't have to guess at what it means to be a Sith or what the result is. The mythologies of the movies give us multiple examples.

I'll give you another example. If someone says "I'm a sexist" guess what? I'm going to assume that they do the things that sexists do. If they say "HI, I'm a racist" I'm going to assume that they do what racists do. There is absolutely no reason to redefine any of these things to fit what people think they are. We grapple with people having legitimate reasons for identifying with a different gender. But you know what I don't like? I don't like when guys act like what they think women act like when real women don't act like that. They create a caricature of femininity. And ultimately, it's not feminine. It's an imitation. Likewise, imo we're dealing with imitation Sith... which is NOT BAD... because do we really want real Sith running around here? But at the same time I think they spread a watered down ideology of both the Jedi and Sith with a leaning towards Gray Jedi because they're trying to combine everything they like into one. But it doesn't work like that. The Jedi is the way it is in order to prevent the corruption that comes with having access to so much power. The Sith is the way it is because of its corruption. They think they can have the power of the Sith without the discipline of the Jedi and not be corrupted by it.

If we stick to that argument, then we should assume there are no real Jedi, because if you call yourself one I will assume you live a monastic life with vows of non-attachment and are deployed for diplomatic ops where you use telekinesis and a lightsaber to enforce justice.

@Luthien

What claims are you referring to? And what exactly do you think I should have read beyond the Darth Bane series and the other SW books in my collection? Not even worth mentioning are the games I've played that used the SW license with a sanctioned understanding of Sith.

What I'm saying is based on SW canon. People reject it because it is true to SW but not to them. I can't research a group of pelicans to learn about bears. I can't spend time interacting with mice to learn about snakes.

I mean no offense, but how do I know the subjects of study actually are the thing I want to know about? Because they say they are? The bible says there are those who "say they are Jews and are not" and calls them the synagogue of Satan. What people claim, even if they agree together about their claims, doesn't equate to an objective fact.

And no one has yet to explain what makes them a Sith rather than a Gray or Dark Jedi... or even just a normal person looking out for themselves. Because what would makes me a Jedi is not simply calling myself a Jedi.

@ZealotX

I think your reply to Luthien about sums up the issue. What else could you have read beyond SW mythology in a debate about Sith in the real world? Perhaps information about the Sith in the real world?

I agree with Lithien, conjecture does not an argument make.

ZealotX wrote: Wise words, but I think the importance on spiritual development for the Jedi is on discipline so that the knight overcomes the dark, not the other way around. While they physical fights can be won through will and focus and skill, the real enemy and the real battle is always within. It is the darkness within that we must battle.

Might depend how one defines 'dark', as it seems integral to this theme so abandonment of it would be... curious.
Finding a useful context for it might even change over time as one progresses perhaps? I tend to reject its use for concepts of evil, and instead just call that evil, and maybe its most accessibly practical for negative inclinations or forces on ones path. But there are many ways to use it, some people like the light on their face and some like the light on their backs, so if your in the light and facing the dark you view is dark but your essence is light
So I tend to a functional individual definition as having more importance, and keeping it relevant and effective to ones path IMO.

@Magnus Staar

If I was expecting Sith to have holocrons and lightsabers you'd have a point. Even in the SW your definition doesn't hold up. Jedi used vibroswords before the invention of lightsabers.

The Jedi /ˈdʒɛˌdaɪ/ are the main protagonists in the Star Wars universe. They are depicted as an ancient monastic and academic meritocratic organization whose origin dates back to c. 25,000 BBY (Before Battle of Yavin; the destruction of the first Death Star).

The Jedi Order mostly consists of polymaths: teachers, philosophers, scientists, engineers, physicians, diplomats and warriors, who value knowledge and wisdom above nationality. By serving others, the Jedi give of themselves through acts of charity, citizenship, and volunteerism. A Jedi's ideology and strict way of life as a worthwhile challenge to live up to is a recurring theme in the Star Wars universe. Their traditional weapon is the lightsaber, a device which generates a blade-like plasma controlled by a crystal. The fictional organization has inspired a real-world new religious movement, Jediism.[1]

The difference is you can have Jedi without the dogma of non-attachment (as we have examples of that even in the SW canon) or the membership to the fictional organization.

However, you can't escape what the Sith represent and what their ideology teaches.

The Sith are dedicated to the "Sith Code" and to mastering the Dark Side of the Force.[5] Sith Lords traditionally use the title Darth-prefix before their Sith name. The Sith's Dark Side methodology, which draws on the Force through severe negative emotions, is antipodal to that of their archenemies, the Jedi, who rely on the Force's "Light Side," i.e., the Force as experienced through disciplined states of quietude and compassion. Notably, both the Jedi and Sith shun romantic and familial love, as the Jedi fear such love will lead to attachment, and thus selfishness, and the Sith fear it will compromise their connection to the Dark Side of the Force. Although the Sith are intimately linked to the Dark Side, not every "Dark Side"-user is a Sith; nor is every "Light Side"-user a Jedi.

The Dark Side of the Force is stigmatized as corruptive and addictive by the Jedi, who view it as evil.[6] As portrayed in all Star Wars-related media, the Dark Side provides users with powers similar to those of the Light Side-using Jedi, but as it leverages passion and violence, its use is enhanced by negative raw and aggressive emotions and instinctual feelings such as anger, greed, hatred, and rage. Extended indulgence in the Dark Side creates a loss of humanity, morality, empathy, and the ability to love, leaving the Sith indifferent, sociopathic, aloof, amoral, cruel, sadistic and violent. Considering this dark change in personality to be a transformation into a different person altogether, some who turn to the Dark Side take on a different name, as they regard their former persona as dead and destroyed. - wikipedia

What sense does it make to claim to be a Sith without regard to the corruption that is a result of adherence to the Sith code and philosophy?

Arisaig wrote: @ZealotX

I think your reply to Luthien about sums up the issue. What else could you have read beyond SW mythology in a debate about Sith in the real world? Perhaps information about the Sith in the real world?

I agree with Lithien, conjecture does not an argument make.

But with all due respect... you're basically creating a difference between real life Sith ideology vs SW mythology and you want me to treat the "real life" sith as real sith which would make the sith in the SW... "wrong"? You're using THEIR Sith Code but saying their interpretation isn't correct. That's like me quoting the founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses and claiming to have created a JW church but then any part of it I don't like (like no blood transfusions) I just leave out and I can just decide to change their doctrines into Catholicism but since I'm calling it Jehovah's Witness people have to respect it as such.

No, they don't. That choice is entirely up to the person and their knowledge of what JW is actually supposed to be. You can't give something a new definition and expect everyone to accept it. The Jedi view of the Sith doesn't need to change. Jedi do not need to ignore the hatred, anger, greed, etc. employed by Sith philosophy as a source and catalyst of power. It is the antithesis of the Jedi teachings.

How do I know? Because that's how it started in the first place. And you can't take on the identity and say you are a true Sith without understanding how the Sith began; their origin, and why they behave as they do. You're making it sound like their behavior in the movies has nothing to do with the tenets of their ideology. I'm saying no, their ideology is the reason why they behaved that way in the SW universe. So you can't be a "Real life" Sith and not expect to suffer any corruption as a result of that ideology. It simply wont be artistically maligned by yellow eyes and deformity. These changes were representative of the fallen character of "the adversary". They weren't chosen at random. The whole point of the SW mythos was to retell a story of good and evil and the balance of power between dualistic forces and how they use wield power. That's why you have the Nazis mixed into the British empire. The movie is telling you "we've been here before".

So forgive me if I feel like the "real life sith" are ignoring the whole meaning of the whole mythos entirely. And if you're going to do that then fine, but why then call yourself a Sith? Using that word invokes the very mythos you're trying to ignore. The bible, for example, says the wages of sin is death. It doesn't mean that every time you do something wrong you're going to die. It also doesn't mean that if you break the law you have to be executed. What it means is that sin is a path. If you follow that path it leads to death. Why? The bible defines sin as both the "transgression of the law" and the law as love. Therefore, if we do not maintain the bonds of love between ourselves, as a group, we'll destroy ourselves as a group. If we steal from each other, murder each other, take someone's wife or husband, etc. we will make each other into an adversaries (satan). And why would someone steal from you? Because they put their own wants over your needs. It's selfishness vs selflessness. People seek power to vanquish an external enemy when the threat that creates that external enemy has always been the one in the mirror. This is why ancient societies not only had laws but also spiritual systems that created pathways to enlightenment and character progression. Sith is not a model for character progression. It sacrifices it in order make it easier to obtain power. I'm sorry, but I can't recognize anyone being a Sith without at least that aspect.

And since the Jedi story is also one of redemption I wouldn't be much of a Jedi if I didn't instinctively try to bring "Sith" back to the light or prevent any threat they pose to the Jedi and the universe. I don't see why my entire understanding of both Jedi and Sith needs to change to fit a bunch of people who want to call themselves Sith in spite of ignoring the SW mythos that created the name.

But with all due respect... you're basically creating a difference between real life Sith ideology vs SW mythology and you want me to treat the "real life" sith as real sith which would make the sith in the SW... "wrong"? You're using THEIR Sith Code but saying their interpretation isn't correct. That's like me quoting the founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses and claiming to have created a JW church but then any part of it I don't like (like no blood transfusions) I just leave out and I can just decide to change their doctrines into Catholicism but since I'm calling it Jehovah's Witness people have to respect it as such.

I see the point you're trying to make, however there is one slight difference in your example - being that various "Figures" in the JW world could very come around and argue the point about your new splinter group.

In the unlikely event that Darth Maul rocks up and starts slapping people upside the head, then the "real life" sith might have something to worry about - until then, adapting the word to suit their mythology (or methodology) and devising their own path is more or less up to them.

Would it make you happier if they call themselves Z-Warriors instead of Sith?

I don't call myself Sith...and the reason for that is mostly because of the word's connotations for other people. Outside of the Sith/Jedi folk, no one gives a rats arse about the difference between Sith and Jedi., if indeed there is much difference.

When I discuss my "way" I want to conjure up images of Sir Alec Guiness in a homespun robe, not a glossy black cyborg, so the language I use reflects that.

The debate between Sith and Jedi doesn't interest me half so much as the one between Jedi (and Sith and all related offshoots) and Christian or Agnostic.

When one day all of my friends and family are "some sort of" variation of the Jedi group, then I'll worry about the various subdivisions.