The olympics and Russia

MadHatter wrote:

Adder wrote: I don't reckon they should allow professional athlete's either but I guess that becomes a bit tricky when it needs to engage the public's interest in sport's which already have pro followings.

What is an Olympic Athlete but a professional athlete? They train their entire lives for it and often make money in other competitions in the interval years. So how is that any different then and NBA player or what have you? I am a little curious as to what you meant.

My understanding is that the Olympics were meant to be a competition among amateur athletes, meaning they do not get paid a salary to compete in their sport. The line becomes blurred between "professional" and "amateur" when government sponsored teams or athletes with corporate sponsors are involved. The Soviets were an example of a government sponsored Olympic team, which effectively made them professional athletes competing in amateur competition. That's what makes the 1980 "Miracle On Ice" so special. A bunch of college kids from the U.S. beat the Soviet hockey team consisting of players that most consider to be professional. Nowadays pretty much everybody in the Olympics is being supported financially by someone else, so it doesn't really matter anymore.

As for the Russians cheating, I've always felt like we should go one way or the other. Either ban every single performance enhancing substance for everyone, or let everything in and see just what the enhanced human body is capable of. Some of the most entertaining years of baseball in the U.S. came when hitters where on steroids and cranking 500 foot home runs on a daily basis. Just imagine what it would be like if the pitchers where throwing 120 MPH fastballs as well? I know it is harmful to their bodies, but it is their body to harm, right?

Senan wrote:

MadHatter wrote:

Adder wrote: I don't reckon they should allow professional athlete's either but I guess that becomes a bit tricky when it needs to engage the public's interest in sport's which already have pro followings.

What is an Olympic Athlete but a professional athlete? They train their entire lives for it and often make money in other competitions in the interval years. So how is that any different then and NBA player or what have you? I am a little curious as to what you meant.

My understanding is that the Olympics were meant to be a competition among amateur athletes, meaning they do not get paid a salary to compete in their sport. The line becomes blurred between "professional" and "amateur" when government sponsored teams or athletes with corporate sponsors are involved. The Soviets were an example of a government sponsored Olympic team, which effectively made them professional athletes competing in amateur competition. That's what makes the 1980 "Miracle On Ice" so special. A bunch of college kids from the U.S. beat the Soviet hockey team consisting of players that most consider to be professional. Nowadays pretty much everybody in the Olympics is being supported financially by someone else, so it doesn't really matter anymore.

As for the Russians cheating, I've always felt like we should go one way or the other. Either ban every single performance enhancing substance for everyone, or let everything in and see just what the enhanced human body is capable of. Some of the most entertaining years of baseball in the U.S. came when hitters where on steroids and cranking 500 foot home runs on a daily basis. Just imagine what it would be like if the pitchers where throwing 120 MPH fastballs as well? I know it is harmful to their bodies, but it is their body to harm, right?

Even in the ancient Greek games the athletes got large sums of money from their home towns for this and had to swear that they had been training for at least ten months. So that means they were professionals more or less and always have been.

As far as people using what they want sure I guess. I will say that it does give an unfair advantage to those that dont wish to destroy their body so maybe separate categories?

Edan wrote:

Lightstrider wrote: Just more nonsense to stir up negative public perception of Russia.

I don't think systemic cheating in international sport is nonsense.

Cheating how? All the doping allegations are pushed by 'an informant' not actual drug tests, just a politicized report.

As for fairness, even US athletes are using not just their own body to compete. Transcranial direct current stimulation (tDCS) is a process that involves athletes wearing a device called a ‘Halo Sport’ on their heads, which channels a small current into the brain.

Also there's US and other athletes who were doped up, still get to compete but may not be able to receive a medal even if they win. This whole thing is a circus. I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that if the latest Olympic doping scandal involved US athletes and unproven allegations of state-sponsored cheating, British newspapers would not be calling for a ban on all American athletes from the Rio Olympics.

They’d probably be calling - in concerned tones, of course - for each American athlete to be assessed individually and not punished for the sins of others, while simultaneously loudly screaming accusations that the whistleblower was secretly working for Vladimir Putin.

There was a report in a British newspaper last month about British athletes guilty of doping. Strange how the news disappeared and all we hear is about Russian athletes. This all about politics and nothing to do with sports. Those calling for a total ban on Russia are the ones covering up Western athletes doping.

I don’t know, it’s just a hunch. But just gotta think about Great Britain and Russia. The British ruling class still hate Russia due to teh fact that British defeat in its efforts to extend colonial influence into Central Asia through Afghanistan was defeated by Tsarist Russia, and that period represents the zenith of the Empire. Russia defeated Britain in the Great Game, and it was all downhill from there for the Empire.

The hatred toward Russia and intended distortion of the facts about it is not new phenomenon in GB - the story is almost 400 years old now. If you take trouble to read reports or memoirs of GB diplomats on Russia from 1700 and later, you would get the picture- and a lot of laugh. Free- roaming bears on the streets of Moscow are from these sources.

The universally russophobic and trashy Brirish (well all western media too cause it's controlled by a very small group) media is totally obsessed with its anti-Russian agenda. There is certainly a culture in little Britain and its controlled gutter press - culture of self-assumed superiority, impunity, mendacity and blanket russophobia. Some of the most hideous lies and propaganda have emanated and continue to emanate from British media starting from false Iraq dossier to blatant demonization of Russia through the travesty of a report on Litvinenko, grotesque BBC tv broadcast about Putin's wealth (with no attempt to provide evidence), Panama papers with Putins face on the front pages though his name not mentioned once unlike PM Camerons', then the depravity of a tv show about Russia's nuclear attack on the Baltics, now the lies about doping, not to mention a daily diet of poised propaganda broth fed to ill informed british public.

MadHatter wrote: Even in the ancient Greek games the athletes got large sums of money from their home towns for this and had to swear that they had been training for at least ten months. So that means they were professionals more or less and always have been.

I guess by "amateur" in the modern sense, we would have to mean that the athlete is not participating in a paid professional league in their sport. College basketball, baseball and hockey players are considered "amateur", but a kid straight out of high school drafted into the NBA, MLB or NHL are not. This definition only works for sports that have "professional" leagues established though, and the Olympics have pretty much given up on this distinction anyway since NHL and NBA players are allowed to represent their own countries anyway.

MadHatter wrote: As far as people using what they want sure I guess. I will say that it does give an unfair advantage to those that dont wish to destroy their body so maybe separate categories?

I certainly wouldn't recommend anybody put that crap in their body and I would commend those who don't, but if people are going to do it anyway, separate categories would be the way to go. We could have the regular games and the "'Roid Games" :laugh:

Senan wrote:

MadHatter wrote: Even in the ancient Greek games the athletes got large sums of money from their home towns for this and had to swear that they had been training for at least ten months. So that means they were professionals more or less and always have been.

I guess by "amateur" in the modern sense, we would have to mean that the athlete is not participating in a paid professional league in their sport. College basketball, baseball and hockey players are considered "amateur", but a kid straight out of high school drafted into the NBA, MLB or NHL are not. This definition only works for sports that have "professional" leagues established though, and the Olympics have pretty much given up on this distinction anyway since NHL and NBA players are allowed to represent their own countries anyway.

No at this point I think we more or less agree on what the term professional is and I can even see where you are coming from on it being only "amateur" however let me play devils advocate for a moment. In the ancient Greek games all the people across the Greek city states were allowed to compete including the Spartans. All of the events of those games were based off of or very similar to the military sills of the Hoplite. Spartans were known to be the hardest most dangerous foes in Greece, in fact all Spartan men were in the military and only the military. So does that mean that even then professionals were competing? I mean as compared to the part time citizen soldiers of the rest of Greece.

Senan wrote:

MadHatter wrote: As far as people using what they want sure I guess. I will say that it does give an unfair advantage to those that dont wish to destroy their body so maybe separate categories?

I certainly wouldn't recommend anybody put that crap in their body and I would commend those who don't, but if people are going to do it anyway, separate categories would be the way to go. We could have the regular games and the "'Roid Games" :laugh:

The Roid games would be something to see. Guys throwing 2 foot ball field lengths for a hammer throw etc. I am now wonder what drugs the shoots sports would have. Maybe something that slowed heart rate and increased focus? Holy crud that could get risky.........

There's a comedian that does a bit about the drug and steroid Olympics. He says he wants to see an Olympics where all drugs are allowed. "If someone wants to run the 100 meters in half a second f***ing let him! I'd like to see him slow down before he gets to the bendy bit" Tommy Tiernan is hilarious.

MadHatter wrote:

Adder wrote: I don't reckon they should allow professional athlete's either but I guess that becomes a bit tricky when it needs to engage the public's interest in sport's which already have pro followings.

What is an Olympic Athlete but a professional athlete? They train their entire lives for it and often make money in other competitions in the interval years. So how is that any different then and NBA player or what have you? I am a little curious as to what you meant.

My understanding of amateur v professional is the former is unable to compete for monetary prizes or earn a salary from competing during their competitive career. The closest the best amateurs get is support from government who provide facilities, services and scholarships to cover costs in equipment and travel to compete. In which case they would not earn money from competing between Olympics... but I guess most just become PTI's anyway. I guess this means its accessible for more people to break into sports, in theory.

Adder wrote:

MadHatter wrote:

Adder wrote: I don't reckon they should allow professional athlete's either but I guess that becomes a bit tricky when it needs to engage the public's interest in sport's which already have pro followings.

What is an Olympic Athlete but a professional athlete? They train their entire lives for it and often make money in other competitions in the interval years. So how is that any different then and NBA player or what have you? I am a little curious as to what you meant.

My understanding of amateur v professional is the former is unable to compete for monetary prizes or earn a salary from competing during their competitive career. The closest the best amateurs get is support from government who provide facilities, services and scholarships to cover costs in equipment and travel to compete. In which case they would not earn money from competing between Olympics... but I guess most just become PTI's anyway. I guess this means its accessible for more people to break into sports, in theory.

Fair enough. However the standard at which these people compete to get into the games makes training almost a full time job. So how could we keep the high standard and yet not expect them to make a living off of it? I have always figured that they have to make money some how and its pretty hard to train to the levels they work at and still work a 9 to 5. Besides even with the ancient Olympics the athletes got big prizes from their cities so its not like the current situation is without precedent.

if you want to see what people are capable of on steroids, watch professional wrestling
or the ufc, these days
or any pro body building or strongman competitions

personally it bugs me that everyone in ufc is juicing: i want to see what people are capable of WITHOUT steroids
but if you dont take them and everyone else does...

but they eff up your heart, which is why arnie had to get a heart valve replaced and why so many pro wrestlers just drop dead for no apparent reason

i aggree with the sentiment "all in or all out" and would agree with having a steroids league and no steroids league

Bruce Jenner continues to do pretty serious amounts of steroids and they're not taking his medals away... Even calling him an inspiration and all that...