Fluoride in drinking water

A lobbyist article stumbled across my field of view today which I thought might be interest. Apparently children might be susceptible to damage from fluoride in drinking water, much more then adults;

"A recently published Harvard University meta-analysis funded by the National Institutes of Health (NIH) has concluded that children who live in areas with highly fluoridated water have "significantly lower" IQ scores than those who live in low fluoride areas."

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/08/14/fluoride-effects-in-children.aspx

The actual report is available for free;

Although fluoride may cause neurotoxicity in animal models and acute fluoride poisoning causes neurotoxicity in adults, very little is known of its effects on children’s neurodevelopment.

http://ehp03.niehs.nih.gov/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1289%2Fehp.1104912#Ahead%20of%20Print%20%28AOP%29

If this were true then I guess it might be best practice for kids to drink bottled water, and toothpaste could still be used so long as it was spat out and the mouth rinsed properly!?

I personally did not have much opinion about it because it apparently is good for the teeth but my better half only drinks bottled water (which would mean my tap water must have it). I just drink tap water.

This issue is also relevant in Hawaii (where I live, currently).
The State's Water Supply has never been fluoridated, and politicians here have made sure it never happens in the future as well. I personally don't have a strong position on this matter. However, my dad, a general and cosmetic dentist, has always complained that the state has never fluoridated the water. He believes they should, but I've always been on the fence.


And, to be honest, I'm still on the fence. This article hasn't really convinced me to oppose our water from being fluoridated, nor has it convinced me to advocate for our water being fluoridated.


To be honest, I've seen many theoretical medical studies that make bold claims on correlative (and not definitive) evidence.


For example, I don't believe that diet soda causes obesity and cancer, and I don't believe that playing video games makes kids any more violent than kids who don't play video games.

Both issues have medical/science studies and reports that make those kinds of bold claims.

I've also heard claims that chemicals leech from plastic water bottles, so the situation seems lose-lose, at least from what we're able to understand of it from our outsider perspective.

We use a Brita and a water purification system at home, but I don't know whether or not the water system removes fluoride or not.

I agree with SeanChing that it seems this is correlative evidence.

But if it's not...thank the Gods my mother made me skip fluoride gurgling in elementary school! I'd be dumber than a post if I had gurgled with the rest of the kids!

Hahaha.

I'll have to read it through more thoroughly, but we have to remember that this is areas with high fluoride. Not areas that simply have some fluoride

If anything is to be taken away it's that people should be cautious not to over contaminate somewhere with fluoride

That is assuming that the analysis is correct and I haven't read in enough detail to make my own judgement yet

As for myself. Well I don't think that drinking fluoride has been made me any dumberer

I don't like additives. There's nothing wrong with plain water. And to have nice teeth, you will have to brush them regularly, will probably have to go to the dentist, and they will probably fall off when you're old anyway. So putting something like fluorine in the water supply seems over the top... We live with too many toxic chemicals. Mercury, lead, tefflon, you-name-it, you're having too much of it.

Akkarin wrote:
As for myself. Well I don't think that drinking fluoride has been made me any dumberer

HAHAHA :woohoo:

Ahem.
No, Senior Knight Akkarin. You can't say "dumberer". That is not proper English.
I believe the appropriate word is "stupider"

I've heard about the dangers of fluoride before - luckily I have a choice as the drinking water we have here doesn't have it added to it. Doctors here try to prescribe fluoride tablets for children and I also have always refused them. They do go to the dentist quite a bit - at least twice a year. I do, too. I didn't have braces on my teeth for four years as a teenager to just let them go! lol

Adder wrote: If this were true then I guess it might be best practice for kids to drink bottled water, and toothpaste could still be used so long as it was spat out and the mouth rinsed properly!?

I personally did not have much opinion about it because it apparently is good for the teeth but my better half only drinks bottled water (which would mean my tap water must have it). I just drink tap water.

A lot of bottled water IS tap water. Weird how a product can change the way we feel about water.

"No! Don't drink that icky tap water, Beth! It'll kill ya," says guy drinking a bottle of water (Dasani) filled at the Coca Cola tap.

Back to the point, interesting read. Fluoride in the water doesn't paticularly bother me considering it can be found in nature. However, I agree too much can be harmful, but that goes for just about anything. What doesn't cause cancer, brain damage, or death these days?


"Fluoride is usually found naturally in low concentration in drinking water and foods. The concentration in seawater averages 1.3 parts per million (ppm). Fresh water supplies generally contain between 0.01–0.3 ppm, whereas the ocean contains between 1.2 and 1.5 ppm.[7] In some locations, the fresh water contains dangerously high levels of fluoride, leading to serious health problems." - Wiki

Wendaline wrote:

Adder wrote: If this were true then I guess it might be best practice for kids to drink bottled water, and toothpaste could still be used so long as it was spat out and the mouth rinsed properly!?

I personally did not have much opinion about it because it apparently is good for the teeth but my better half only drinks bottled water (which would mean my tap water must have it). I just drink tap water.

A lot of bottled water IS tap water. Weird how a product can change the way we feel about water.

"No! Don't drink that icky tap water, Beth! It'll kill ya," says guy drinking a bottle of water (Dasani) filled at the Coca Cola tap.

Back to the point, interesting read. Fluoride in the water doesn't paticularly bother me considering it can be found in nature. However, I agree too much can be harmful, but that goes for just about anything. What doesn't cause cancer, brain damage, or death these days?


"Fluoride is usually found naturally in low concentration in drinking water and foods. The concentration in seawater averages 1.3 parts per million (ppm). Fresh water supplies generally contain between 0.01–0.3 ppm, whereas the ocean contains between 1.2 and 1.5 ppm.[7] In some locations, the fresh water contains dangerously high levels of fluoride, leading to serious health problems." - Wiki

Your post made me do a search for some info on spring water flouride levels locally. I imagined a spring could have more flouride then tap water, but I found an interesting document in the Australian Dental Journal.

It shows that the top 10 bottled water in Australia has fluoride at levels between 0.03 and 0.07 ppm compared to Melbourne tap water at 1.02 ppm.

Its true some bottled water is tap water, and they charge more for it then petrol per volume!!!!

That's a really neat article too. Who knew water could be so interesting and debatable.

Interestingly enough,this article which I have read in the past, only points out that too much, being at least 25x the amount found in water naturally in texas, would have a net negative effect. The adding and removal only bring levels to recommended amounts and does not pose a harmful risk to children.


..........Unless if you lived in china. There is a skeptoid issue about this that I suggest you guys check out sometime. It is very educational.

DanWerts wrote: The adding and removal only bring levels to recommended amounts and does not pose a harmful risk to children.

..........Unless

... unless the system adding the flouride has a problem and dumps too much into the water. This very thing happened near where I live in 2009; "Up to 20 times the allowable fluoride doses were added to the water, supplying about 4,000 homes in Brisbane's north, the state government revealed last week."

Oooops.

Adder wrote:

DanWerts wrote: The adding and removal only bring levels to recommended amounts and does not pose a harmful risk to children.

..........Unless

... unless the system adding the fluoride has a problem and dumps too much into the water. This very thing happened near where I live in 2009; "Up to 20 times the allowable fluoride doses were added to the water, supplying about 4,000 homes in Brisbane's north, the state government revealed last week."

Oooops.

That's actually a fair point you make.
The fact is, when proceeding with things like sanitation, fluoridation, waste water disposal, etc, those who are providing the service must take care not to make major mistakes like this. And when they do, the problem is resolved, and those responsible are held accountable.

Also, I found the original article that tackled the whole fluoride lowers your IQ business.
http://www.cracked.com/quick-fixes/fluoride-lowers-your-iq-b.s.-headline-week/

Be advised, the site has some strong language, which is typical of a site which uses humor to tackle issues of the day.

This is my favorite part (Edited to only remove offensive language in the form of an F bomb):

"Whoa! OK, now, which areas? Like, is Milwaukee worse than Dallas? Well, let's follow the link in the press release to the study and then the additional details of the study. In some tiny print you'll find they're talking about China and India, and they are not **(Language edit)*** talking about fluoride in toothpaste or stuff being added to drinking water. In those countries, their water supply is contaminated with mega-doses of fluoride that seeps into wells from the soil. They're getting toxic levels up to 20 times higher than what you get in your drinking water."

Links they refer to (In order)
http://ehp03.niehs.nih.gov/article/fetchArticle.action;jsessionid=5C98A897B69464FD44D98698EE9FC4A1?articleURI=info%3Adoi%2F10.1289%2Fehp.1104912
The study itself.
http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/naturalhazards/en/index2.html


The takeaway, to me, is this: Fluoridation has great benefits, China and India have a problem with too much fluoride from the soil seeping into the wells, Anion F- is noted as resulting in mega-doses 20X times what is advised and China and India (The nations noted in the article) need to figure out a way to get the excess Fluoride out of well water.

Does this mean that the fluoride in our water will lower our IQs? No.
Does this mean we should demand higher standards from those we entrust to put or remove fluoride from the water? Absolutely.

Beyond that, I have nothing else to really add. Now that I am back at my house I can properly link to the article I alluded to. Since I mentioned Skeptoid earlier though, here is the skeptoid article: http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4058

As I close out, I want to remind everyone that my big thing is that we need to make sure that we always follow our sources and double check our science on things. Failure to do so could result in very negative consequences for us and our loved ones health.

Everyone take care and may the force be with you.

My point was the study says children react differently to adults, not that flouride was bad. Perhaps I should have been more specific in the title, but I thought it was clear in the message.

More and more we hear about how children can incur damage from things which adults can seemingly brush off, marijuana is another which comes to mind. Reading this and knowledge of the infallibility of human made systems would be enough to make me reconsider risking my childs health to tap water...

...if I had children :pinch:

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

You can believe anything you like. The above videos on fluoride are only but a few. It is hard to ignore all the issues we have in the world and not wondering if they come from all the chemicals we consume.

We all have the right to believe whatever we wish. Personally I do believe fluoride is dangerous. I am also a firm believer that we are exploited daily by companies that know their products are dangerous but are more concerned with the bottom line than our health.

Good topic BTW, thanks for starting it.

Be healthy, be safe. MTFBWY.

Omni wrote: It is hard to ignore all the issues we have in the world and not wondering if they come from all the chemicals we consume.

THANK YOU. It always seemed obvious to me why we have the health issues we do. Everything is polluted with unnatural substances. The air we breathe, the water we drink, the food we eat. Very little is chemical free these days.

I have to admit to being very opinionated on this topic, because I've done the reading, and I know the facts, and we are just screwing ourselves. Fluoride may be less harmful than other chemicals, but the point could still be made that the vast majority of them do some sort of damage, even if it is extremely long-term.

It's not coincidence that cancer, disease, and disorders are at a higher rate than ever before. It's because most of what we consume is artificial. All I can say is, thank god we're given the option of Organic foods. It's not much, but it's a step in the right direction.

Streen wrote: It always seemed obvious to me why we have the health issues we do. Everything is polluted with unnatural substances. The air we breathe, the water we drink, the food we eat.

The longer lives we live, the cures for diseases we have, the more food we have, the less bacteria infested water we drink, the technology we have, the ability to catch a cold and survive

Very little is chemical free these days

EDIT: http://www.nhs.uk/news/2009/07July/Pages/OrganicFoodIsNoBetter.aspx

It's not coincidence that cancer, disease, and disorders are at a higher rate than ever before. It's because most of what we consume is artificial. All I can say is, thank god we're given the option of Organic foods. It's not much, but it's a step in the right direction.

Whilst we could undoubtedly do better without our pollution, there is also no doubt in my mind that human activities are centered around making our lives easier and longer. We are trading off our environment quality for life quality... And that overall, we've never had it so good. I have yet to hear from any black death casualties in my neighborhood.

As we live longer and longer, cancer rates are bound to go up. We get cancer as a result of a design flaw that causes our cells to lose DNA every time they reproduce. Cell reproduction can be accelerated through contact with dangerous chemicals, but considering smoking cigarettes takes on average a good 20 years to give a heavy smoker cancer, I think you might be jumping to conclusions regarding environmental pollution or food/drink additives.
Whilst some of our habits will lead to poor health (junk food, junk or alcoholic drinks, tobacco, drugs, skinny jeans and push-up bras), none of them count as what you call "unnatural" substances.


In regards to organic food, you might want to do some more reading. Organic food production is unreliable, significantly more extensive and difficult on the environment than your regular non-organic GM food for the same nutritional output... And pollution-wise, your organic food absorbs just as much of whatever shit is in the atmosphere than regular non-organic... It's in your tap water, your bottled water, in your freshly renewably caught salmon, everywhere.

Streen wrote: THANK YOU. It always seemed obvious to me why we have the health issues we do. Everything is polluted with unnatural substances. The air we breathe, the water we drink, the food we eat. Very little is chemical free these days.

I have to admit to being very opinionated on this topic, because I've done the reading, and I know the facts, and we are just screwing ourselves. Fluoride may be less harmful than other chemicals, but the point could still be made that the vast majority of them do some sort of damage, even if it is extremely long-term.

It's not coincidence that cancer, disease, and disorders are at a higher rate than ever before. It's because most of what we consume is artificial. All I can say is, thank god we're given the option of Organic foods. It's not much, but it's a step in the right direction.

What is obvious for some, is not for others and that is unfortunate. I also tend to be opinionated on this topic. I have also done the reading and spent the time researching, years actually. The information is out there and thankfully more people are learning. But with anything there are those that choose to think there is not a problem, and that is ok. We all walk our own path in life and we all choose what it is we want to believe. 'Ignorance is bliss' so the saying goes.

And yes, it is not a coincidence. It is sad. These problems are afflicting our children at an alarming rate. Diabetes alone is growing to become a global epidemic.

COPD is also on the rise and is a nasty disease to die from. COPD took my father and I must say watching him suffocate for the last 8 years of his life was one of the hardest things I have ever witnessed. He was of the belief that smoking was not hurting him. I can not tell you how many times in those 8 years he told me how he killed himself with smoking.

Again this all comes down to choice. You want to believe that fluoride or chemicals in your food and water are somehow doing you good, good for you. I am happy that you have the ability to make choices. I however will choose the opposite, I will eat organic when I can, I will grow organic and I will consume less chemicals as much as possible. My goal is not to live longer than anyone else, it is to live with the best quality of life that I can.

I have done the reading and I have changed what I eat and continue to refine it. I have never in my life felt as good as I do now. Does that mean I will not get cancer, of course not. Any of us can get cancer for a multitude of reasons. But I will do my best to reduce my chances where ever I think I can. The cleaner my body and habits become the more focused my mind. The body may be but the vehicle, but it is a good idea to treat it right so the mind has something to ride around in.

May the force be with you all.