Native American Jedi? Part 4 - Gross National….Peace?

JLSpinner wrote: I suppose you could claim both, but generally speaking the two aren't created in the same way. Pleasure being caused by external stimuli and being of a temporary and superficial nature. Joy is an internal state. Pleasure usually leads to desire which is not cohesive with joy. But perhaps you have a different experience.

No I think I have the exact same experience as every one else. In our competitive reality the win creates pleasure, which in turn leads to the desire to do that again. But the elevated position that win results in, after the fact, can create joy, the continued internal state of being.

Nobodies experience is the exact same.

I apologize if you are offended. I just don't understand how the want of gain and victory brings joy. Once again, limited to my perspective. Joy to me is usually found when I lose my sense of self. When the experience has my full focus and no thoughts exist. During this time I cannot desire or seek. I can only experience. If my thoughts are on my future path I am forgoing my opportunities of joy to seek comfort. At least, those are my experiences.

JLSpinner wrote: Nobodies experience is the exact same.

I apologize if you are offended...

What are you talking about? How did you come to the idea that I was offended? I was simply disusing a subject from an opposed point of view?

Wasn't sure on your tone. Didn't want to upset you.

JLSpinner wrote: I just don't understand how the want of gain and victory brings joy. Once again, limited to my perspective. Joy to me is usually found when I lose my sense of self. When the experience has my full focus and no thoughts exist. During this time I cannot desire or seek. I can only experience. If my thoughts are on my future path I am forgoing my opportunities of joy to seek comfort. At least, those are my experiences.

Yes but that is an unsustainable state in and of itself. What was it that allowed you the luxury of that state vs being in survival mode where you have to search for food shelter and the like? It was being successful at competition which provided your basal needs that in turn allowed that down time in which you could enact that joyful state of losing your sense of self.

Its a balance of the two. We gain through striving and then we can enjoy that.

Any state is unsustainable. This joyous state can exist quite often with a quiet mind. You have made a good point though. I'm am afforded the luxury more because of man's advancement. Even still joy can be found in the work of the day. I'll think on this a bit.

Thank you.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

JLSpinner wrote: I just don't understand how the want of gain and victory brings joy. Once again, limited to my perspective. Joy to me is usually found when I lose my sense of self. When the experience has my full focus and no thoughts exist. During this time I cannot desire or seek. I can only experience. If my thoughts are on my future path I am forgoing my opportunities of joy to seek comfort. At least, those are my experiences.

Yes but that is an unsustainable state in and of itself. What was it that allowed you the luxury of that state vs being in survival mode where you have to search for food shelter and the like? It was being successful at competition which provided your basal needs that in turn allowed that down time in which you could enact that joyful state of losing your sense of self.

Its a balance of the two. We gain through striving and then we can enjoy that.

I remain curious, in part, as to whether the competition for needs in the survival (food/shelter) sense, related to joy, pain, or otherwise, is the only avenue towards the perceived ultimate joyful state of losing our sense of self which we seek to attain?

Should we be victorious in this competition mentality you offer, where a pleasure driven or joyful state is achieved through success and gains of the worldly sense, is that the final measurement of our victory? Or does this competition equate to a more interpersonal victory of self...where survival is assumed, and we are focusing those efforts more in the development of our character, and not the needs or desires of our physical estate?

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Truth be told, your earlier information on Sun Bear as an individual was new to me. Understanding where a person is coming from personally when we attempt to elicit insight from their words is rather important. Yet, since the words remain separate from the mouth from which they are spoken, we can still interpret them for what they are and assign value as we deem fit.

It remains more the point in my view that the original quote sought to focus our aspirations of happiness or peace not upon material gains, but spiritual ones.

Or am I misunderstanding the direction the conversation has gotten to at this point?

SamThift wrote: I remain curious, in part, as to whether the competition for needs in the survival (food/shelter) sense, related to joy, pain, or otherwise, is the only avenue towards the perceived ultimate joyful state of losing our sense of self which we seek to attain?

Should we be victorious in this competition mentality you offer, where a pleasure driven or joyful state is achieved through success and gains of the worldly sense, is that the final measurement of our victory? Or does this competition equate to a more interpersonal victory of self...where survival is assumed, and we are focusing those efforts more in the development of our character, and not the needs or desires of our physical estate?
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It remains more the point in my view that the original quote sought to focus our aspirations of happiness or peace not upon material gains, but spiritual ones

I think it is both, hence the need for the balance. We have to always offset the attainment of milestones with the enjoyment of those milestones. Milestones in this sense is an intermediary between success and not-success - however we define it. That could be through the attainment of food/shelter or spiritual enlightenment. Sometimes the competition is external and sometimes its internal. The universal factor in all this is the competition itself.

We want to be safe and sheltered and we want our families and those we care about to have those things as well. But internally we also compete with ourselves. Are we good enough, are we liked enough, are we talented enough, do we have enough knowledge? Confidence in these things is a constant competition through internal dialogue.

Why do we struggle to obtain knowledge in the pursuit of enlightenment? So we can perceive ourselves to be in a better place than we were before. But the fight is always there in the form of self challenge. What we must do is balance that fight with the acceptance that there are no true goals, (no such thing as final success) only markers on a path. And if we don't stop to spend time at those markers (milestones) to experience the joy in obtaining that place, we are missing out on half of the experience. In effect if we fail to see the reason for the struggle in competition (Joy) that is when the competition becomes futile.