×
Temple Renovation (30 May 2020)

The Temple has undergone renovations. Please see here for more details:

www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/114-A...s/123927-renovations

Is recognition that Jews have the best ideology of the Abrahamic cults the reaso

More
24 Nov 2016 18:41 - 24 Nov 2016 18:49 #265762 by OB1Shinobi

Greatest-I-am wrote: Hi

I am a Gnostic Christian.

I like to hurt the heads of religious people with topic on the immorality of their Gods.

Regards
DL


so, basically youre a tosser, and youve created this username account to insult people and parade your own moral superiority?

im pretty sure that position has already been filled...

None of us can breath, now.
Last edit: 24 Nov 2016 18:49 by OB1Shinobi.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Zenchi

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
24 Nov 2016 19:35 #265777 by Silas Mercury
I hate guilty conscience dammit !! Stop doing this to me you know you're doing it Ob1 !!

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
24 Nov 2016 20:14 - 24 Nov 2016 20:14 #265783 by User22414

Greatest-I-am wrote:

MartaLina wrote: Forgiveness , as a jew i dont feel superior , or as a chosen one , there are of my people that say that , but they need to step down and look what is really going on , an ancient old war played out by new players. As a Jedi , i will have no part of that.


I understand your point of view.

I just do not agree with it as I believe that for evil to grow, all good people need do is not step up when they think they have a better ideology.

In the past, many were thin skinned but the many years of Inquisition and jihad thinking has toughened us up enough as a people that I think it time to start showing how immoral the other Abrahamic sects are.

I think that it is now just fear that is preventing Jews, as a nation, from coming out of the moral theology closet, so to speak.

I hope Jews come out soon, or that my even better Gnostic Christian theology takes hold, which is doubtful.

Regards
DL


Clearly you dont understand my point of view , i am not for war , but when there is war , i will have to choose a side , and as a Jedi i have to do the right thing , which is obviously not stand aside letting things go as they go , but as i see religion its a very dangerous way to show superiority , i am for a complete seperation of church and state and therefor am against EVERY war started by religion , i dont care if its Muslims or Jews , we need to live together. I have no need for apologies from people who have a different view on Adonai , Yeshua or Mohamed ...

Signature
Last edit: 24 Nov 2016 20:14 by User22414. Reason: i cannot type loll

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
24 Nov 2016 23:01 - 24 Nov 2016 23:07 #265809 by Gisteron

Greatest-I-am wrote: Is recognition that Jews have the best ideology of the Abrahamic cults the reason Muslims and Christians hate Jews?

Maybe. It could also be that Jews and their ever so virtuous parrots keep insisting that they are the chosen people with the one true religion and that even at the best of times all they have to say to Christians is that the person most of them consider to be a literal incarnation of their common god is a mere mortal with silly ideas of the afterlife. Islam isn't even warranted that much respect. This is not to say that either deserve them, but the question itself not only makes a laughably bold assumption, it also betrays a unique kind of arrogance of the sort that says "we are so brilliant, there is no way someone could possibly honestly disagree with us". Now, I'm neither a Christian nor a Jew nor a Muslim, I have no religion that would leave me wounded when condescended towards, but lines like these sure don't inspire any sympathy from me and I frankly can't see how a Muslim or a Christian is supposed to be any more appreciative.

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Well, he is wrong about that being in the Torah. The closest thing to it is a line in the Book of Tobit which is not a part of the Torah nor of a majority of the versions of the Christian Bible. If anything, the golden rule is at best expressed in a positive form, and in the New Testament at that, but Hillel is referring to Leviticus 19:18 which says almost nothing of the sort. In my humble opinion both versions of the rule are severely lacking both in principle and in practice, but even if they wouldn't be, there is no reason why anyone should consider them superior or follow them beyond their own intuitive agreement with them after they hear them.

Please listen as to what is said about literal reading.

Why?

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

If Origen said that (citation, please), he is wrong, because as a matter of fact people do take these texts literally and to varying extents. In the light of what is actually the case, what some ancient Greek thought was impossible is completely irrelevant. I'm also pretty sure that he didn't know any more about the intent of God than any other mere mortal at the time, or prior, or since. Without an explanation of the roots of his position, his opinion is useless to us, as would be any other.

Muslims and Christians foolishly read their holy books literally, ignoring that none of the Abrahamic cults did in the past.

Again, so what? There is a past when nobody used to have a horseless carriage either, yet here we are. Older doesn't mean better or more correct. In fact, in most cases quite the opposite is true: As time moves on, our positions improve with the understanding we gain. Now, that's not the case with faith-based positions, I'll grant that much, but just from the fact that there used to be a different position, it does by no means follow that the new ones are "foolish".

This fact makes Muslims and Christians idol worshipers. All Muslim and Christian denominations ignore that the Jesus they all profess to respect preached that we should all be God seekers and never become idol worshipers the way Muslims and Christians have done.

According to Islam, Jews are idol worshippers every bit as much as Muslims are according to what ever source you think to be capital-T truth. And I for one don't know why it matters what some guy allegedly said about what we should or should not worship, but do feel free to enlighten me...

Gnostic Christians like me were and are esoteric ecumenists. You might say that to the old Abrahamic cults of Muslims, Christians and Jews, we were the religious whores of those old days, thanks to the fact that our mystery schools would pick and choose the best tenets of all religions and work them into our Universalist creed. We would not tie ourselves down to becoming idol worshipers of imaginary demiurges the way Muslims and Christians did in ancient days and continue to do today. The fool says in his heart, I know who God is and who his prophets are.

That's funny, considering how you are trying to tell us who God isn't and who his prophets aren't, as if you knew any better than anyone else.

Gnostic Christians and Jews, --- having a superior ideology and philosophy of seeking a good God, --- instead of becoming idol worshipers like Muslims and Christians, --- shared the hate and attempted genocide that Jews suffered thanks to Christians then Muslims.

I'm sorry, I must have overlooked the part where you demonstrated the superiority of the Gnostic Christian or Jewish ideology or philosophy by some metric, or even so much as named the metric by which they are.

Should Muslims and Christians admit their ideological deficiencies and turn their hate to love. It should be quite easy for religions that say they are all about peace and love.

What if they aren't? And if they are, why should it be easy to say? And if it is easy to say, what about that makes it easy to implement? And what idological deficiencies are you talking about? What does that even mean? Why do I even ask this if it's supposedly that obvious how superior your position is to the ones you are challenging here? So far it looks like a pot not only calling the kettle black, but meanwhile also insisting it is brushed and shiny itself.

I think it would be fitting for Muslims and Christians to start walking their talk and apologise to Jews and Gnostic Christians by giving them the recognition for excellence in religious matters.

Yea, well, that's just like... your opinion, man. But, please, do feel free to also explain what you mean by that or why you think so. Its certainly no uncommon position, but so far I only ever heard it stated, never substantiated.

Last edit: 24 Nov 2016 23:07 by Gisteron.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Rex

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
24 Nov 2016 23:25 #265810 by Adder
Don't forget its never really constructive to group a large set of people under one label for the purpose of using that label for behaviors of only a subset of the group.... words like 'some' or 'many' are more accurate, but also less inflammatory.

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
The following user(s) said Thank You: User22414

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Greatest-I-am
  • Greatest-I-am's Avatar Topic Author
  • Guest
24 Nov 2016 23:45 #265813 by Greatest-I-am

OB1Shinobi wrote:

Greatest-I-am wrote: Hi

I am a Gnostic Christian.

I like to hurt the heads of religious people with topic on the immorality of their Gods.

Regards
DL


so, basically youre a tosser, and youve created this username account to insult people and parade your own moral superiority?

im pretty sure that position has already been filled...


Not too surprising as that is an easy posting that even a child could fill.

Ask any 8 year old who is more likely to use genocide, a God or a Satan.

See what I mean?

Regards
DL

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Greatest-I-am
  • Greatest-I-am's Avatar Topic Author
  • Guest
24 Nov 2016 23:53 #265816 by Greatest-I-am

MartaLina wrote: [

Clearly you dont understand my point of view , i am not for war , but when there is war , i will have to choose a side , and as a Jedi i have to do the right thing , which is obviously not stand aside letting things go as they go , but as i see religion its a very dangerous way to show superiority , i am for a complete seperation of church and state and therefor am against EVERY war started by religion , i dont care if its Muslims or Jews , we need to live together. I have no need for apologies from people who have a different view on Adonai , Yeshua or Mohamed ...


The war I am preaching for is a war of words just as Jesus preached.

I do not advocate any show of superiority except in the ideology of the three Abrahamic cults that profess to have the same God.

If Jewry and Christianity cannot show a better morality than a slave owning creed like Islam then we are all in trouble.

Just thinking of the 5,000 or so yearly honor killings and the plethora of FGM should be all it takes.

We have been respecting religions that do not deserve respect for two long and that is why uppity Islam has done more than 28,000 attacks since 9-11. To stay silent just adds more to that number.

Regards
DL

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
24 Nov 2016 23:58 #265817 by Silas Mercury
Does it occur to you that ISIS, Al Shabab and Al Quaeda aren't Muslims ?? Muslims are kind, moral, charitable people. I know it may be hippocritical coming from me, but watch your tongue.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Greatest-I-am
  • Greatest-I-am's Avatar Topic Author
  • Guest
25 Nov 2016 00:50 #265818 by Greatest-I-am

Gisteron wrote: [

quote="Greatest-I-am" post=265695]Is recognition that Jews have the best ideology of the Abrahamic cults the reason Muslims and Christians hate Jews?

Maybe. It could also be that Jews and their ever so virtuous parrots keep insisting that they are the chosen people with the one true religion and that even at the best of times all they have to say to Christians is that the person most of them consider to be a literal incarnation of their common god is a mere mortal with silly ideas of the afterlife.


You center out Jewry. Why, when both Christianity and Islam also say that they are the most virtuous ands true religions?

Christianity depends on their notion that substitutionary atonement is somehow just and moral.

Is that your view?

Islam says that women are not equal to men before the law.

Is that your view?

The Jews do not lie about a hell the way Christianity does. Which is more honest?

Islam isn't even warranted that much respect.


On this, we agree.

This is not to say that either deserve them, but the question itself not only makes a laughably bold assumption, it also betrays a unique kind of arrogance of the sort that says "we are so brilliant, there is no way someone could possibly honestly disagree with us".


With Christianity and Jewry, you can disagree and skip out. With Islam, given the power that Muslim majority countries have, they kill apostates.

In debates on morality, agreements can be found through good arguments. In debates of God's existence, it is just how good a liar the one side is compared to the other.

Arrogance I see as a plus as it shows confidence in ones ideas. I note that you seem to have your share. So do I.

Now, I'm neither a Christian nor a Jew nor a Muslim, I have no religion that would leave me wounded when condescended towards, but lines like these sure don't inspire any sympathy from me and I frankly can't see how a Muslim or a Christian is supposed to be any more appreciative.


I do not seek appreciation. I seek to have idol worshipers wonder why, when they say they respect Jesus, they do not do his bidding and seek God and not become idol worshipers.

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Well, he is wrong about that being in the Torah.


He did not say it was in the Torah. He said it was the essence of the teachings in the Torah. Jesus himself mimicked it with his second command of loving your neighbor as yourself. That is a reciprocity rule just like the Golden Rule.

The closest thing to it is a line in the Book of Tobit which is not a part of the Torah nor of a majority of the versions of the Christian Bible. If anything, the golden rule is at best expressed in a positive form, and in the New Testament at that, but Hillel is referring to Leviticus 19:18 which says almost nothing of the sort. In my humble opinion both versions of the rule are severely lacking both in principle and in practice, but even if they wouldn't be, there is no reason why anyone should consider them superior or follow them beyond their own intuitive agreement with them after they hear them.


Regardless of all that, reciprocity is reciprocity regardless of it being said in a positive way or a negative way. The result is the same. My favorite sociologist dubbed it as Harm/Care and that also shows reciprocity.

Please listen as to what is said about literal reading.

Why?


Because no one can know anything definitely about God and to think someone does shows two fools.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

If Origen said that (citation, please), he is wrong, because as a matter of fact people do take these texts literally and to varying extents.


Yes and stupidly end in believing in real talking serpents and donkeys or a bunch of virgins waiting in heaven for them.

Do you think that that is a good way for intelligent people to think?

In the light of what is actually the case, what some ancient Greek thought was impossible is completely irrelevant. I'm also pretty sure that he didn't know any more about the intent of God than any other mere mortal at the time, or prior, or since. Without an explanation of the roots of his position, his opinion is useless to us, as would be any other.


I think Greeks knowing that serpents and donkeys could not talk human is quite relaxant. It shows intelligence as compared to gullibility in a theist who believes lies.

Muslims and Christians foolishly read their holy books literally, ignoring that none of the Abrahamic cults did in the past.

Again, so what?


So the ancients knew that God could not be known and so did the other Abrahamic cults as they all say that God is unknowable and unfathomable, just before they start to lie about what they know and fathom.

There is a past when nobody used to have a horseless carriage either, yet here we are.


Irrelevant. Do not waste both of our time.

Older doesn't mean better or more correct. In fact, in most cases quite the opposite is true: As time moves on, our positions improve with the understanding we gain.


On things that can be known, I agree. That is not the case with imaginary man made Gods.

Now, that's not the case with faith-based positions,


Which is what we are talking about when speaking of the Abrahamic cults. Seems you just contradicted your last or did not quite express it as you wanted to.

I'll grant that much, but just from the fact that there used to be a different position, it does by no means follow that the new ones are "foolish".


Yes it does when based on faith which is a belief based on nothing.

This fact makes Muslims and Christians idol worshipers. All Muslim and Christian denominations ignore that the Jesus they all profess to respect preached that we should all be God seekers and never become idol worshipers the way Muslims and Christians have done.

According to Islam, Jews are idol worshippers every bit as much as Muslims are according to what ever source you think to be capital-T truth. And I for one don't know why it matters what some guy allegedly said about what we should or should not worship, but do feel free to enlighten me...


Yes, according to Muslims Jews are idol worshipers yet they worship the same idol while saying they are not. Good grief. If you cannot see the hypocrisy and double standard at work then their is nothing I can say that will open your eyes.

Gnostic Christians like me were and are esoteric ecumenists. You might say that to the old Abrahamic cults of Muslims, Christians and Jews, we were the religious whores of those old days, thanks to the fact that our mystery schools would pick and choose the best tenets of all religions and work them into our Universalist creed. We would not tie ourselves down to becoming idol worshipers of imaginary demiurges the way Muslims and Christians did in ancient days and continue to do today. The fool says in his heart, I know who God is and who his prophets are.

That's funny, considering how you are trying to tell us who God isn't and who his prophets aren't, as if you knew any better than anyone else.


It is a lot easier to know what is not real based on evidence than to prove what is assumed to be real based on faith which means nothing and the supernatural which is more stupid than bright.

Gnostic Christians and Jews, --- having a superior ideology and philosophy of seeking a good God, --- instead of becoming idol worshipers like Muslims and Christians, --- shared the hate and attempted genocide that Jews suffered thanks to Christians then Muslims.

I'm sorry, I must have overlooked the part where you demonstrated the superiority of the Gnostic Christian or Jewish ideology or philosophy by some metric, or even so much as named the metric by which they are.


I did above with substitutionary atonement for Christianity and with the institutionalized inequality for women in Islam. Good moral questions that I hope you answer.

Should Muslims and Christians admit their ideological deficiencies and turn their hate to love. It should be quite easy for religions that say they are all about peace and love.

What if they aren't?


Then they show themselves to be liars who do not care about morality, which should be a religions first point of importance. Right?

And if they are, why should it be easy to say?


Because they should by quite happy to have improved their moral sense.

And if it is easy to say, what about that makes it easy to implement?


If common sense and decency cannot override the lies given previously then that should show all the rest just how damaging religious lies are.

And what idological deficiencies are you talking about?


See those questions on morality above. Basically the homophobia and misogyny both Christianity and Islam preach. Jews as well in a few cases in how they view women and cleanliness. That would be the fundamentals more than the majority.

What does that even mean? Why do I even ask this if it's supposedly that obvious how superior your position is to the ones you are challenging here? So far it looks like a pot not only calling the kettle black, but meanwhile also insisting it is brushed and shiny itself.


I know that you are somewhat confused but things should clear up for you from what I put above.

[

quote]I think it would be fitting for Muslims and Christians to start walking their talk and apologise to Jews and Gnostic Christians by giving them the recognition for excellence in religious matters.

Yea, well, that's just like... your opinion, man. But, please, do feel free to also explain what you mean by that or why you think so. Its certainly no uncommon position, but so far I only ever heard it stated, never substantiated.[/quote][/quote]

Again, your own answers to the questions above, if you agree with my view, will show you that at least Gnostic Christianity is a better ideology and theology with Jewry a close second.

Now that these questions are out of our way, perhaps we can start to look at the actual ideologies of homophobia and misogyny in the Christian and Muslim religions that are not in mine and are less apparent and severe in Jewry.

Regards
DL

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Greatest-I-am
  • Greatest-I-am's Avatar Topic Author
  • Guest
25 Nov 2016 00:53 #265819 by Greatest-I-am

Adder wrote: Don't forget its never really constructive to group a large set of people under one label for the purpose of using that label for behaviors of only a subset of the group.... words like 'some' or 'many' are more accurate, but also less inflammatory.


You are right but in this case, the ideologies in question, regardless of the particular denomination or branch applies, when looking at their holy books.

Regards
DL

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Moderators: Edan