Atheist Jedi

I dint mean to split this off....

Well, I did, and didnt, lol...

I was going to, then changed my mind, but then it looks like I did anyway, lol...

Oh well...

Wescli Wardest wrote: Depending on one’s understanding of “god” is the key element here I guess. God is often conceived as the Supreme Being and principal object of faith. The concept of God as described by theologians commonly includes the attributes of omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, Omni benevolence, divine simplicity, and eternal and necessary existence. All of these things can and are often attributed to the Force. So naturally many may conclude that for a Jedi “god” is the Force.

So that, in turns, leads me to ask… can there be Atheist Jedi?

Ren wrote: It must be noted that increasingly atheism is being represented only as one kind of atheism, with the others often finding themselves classed as agnostics. In countries like the US it means both the agnostic gets away with "covertly" being an atheist when in religious crowds, but to the church it also means they are more easily conquered .

People will always classify others...

And I dont care about that...lol...

If I claim I am what I am, then damn tha opinion of others, lol...

Of course, I maybe labeled as a liar, or crazy, but only by the definition of others....

And in my padded cell "Why worry?"?

A god is personal, the force is an "impersonal force". There's the difference. I guess people who see personal characteristics in the Force are some kind of theist... But things like pantheism are just atheism made sexy.

I might get slack for this... but... what is the Force not?

Who says the Force cannot be personal?

Maybe one cannot say that the force is "exclusively personal"... maybe subjectively it may be, but of course, the Force is anything but exclusive as far as I am understanding it.

The more I have learned about the nature of the Force, the more it seems that there is no room to exclude any idea or "thing" from being "The Force". If it is experienced, then it seems that it is the Force. If it is believed, then even still, I see no way to say it is not, since what we are learning relays the idea that not only is seeing believing, but that believing is all that seeing is in the first place, ultimately. We believe reality is the way it seems so much because of the limitations in our way of experiencing all of it, and so, that is how it is to us.

This could just be my ignorance, but a part of me feels that because of the way modern religions have “behaved” and conducted themselves over the last however long it has turned people off to the idea of any organized or accepted Dogma; even a personal dogma of a higher… whatever.

When I was in the service I met many, many atheist who professed that the church was wrong. There was no god. We were all in it alone with no one but ourselves to turn to. We have a saying in the Army… there are no Atheist in fox holes. When I was a private I was tickled by this. I thought that was just something a bunch of religious fanatics said to feel better about their convictions. That is until the arrogance and inexperience of my youth was cleansed away by reality. I have seen people that would argue with Jesus himself that there was no such thing as god began begging to someone to get them out of the situation they were in.

When the crap hits the fan, I have never seen an Atheist in a fox hole. And that has caused me to wonder about things many times. Not that they might be wrong, but what leads people to the place where they are?

All throughout history there have been those that follow what they believe to be their fate and those that press on struggling to forge their own destiny. Which is right? Is either?

Personally, I believe that we all agree that there is some governing dynamic guiding the universe. Whether it be god, evolution, the laws of mathematics or even the hope for pure chaos; each person believes there is something out there guiding, in a way, it all.

ren wrote: A god is personal, the force is an "impersonal force". There's the difference. I guess people who see personal characteristics in the Force are some kind of theist... But things like pantheism are just atheism made sexy.

There was an interview with Joseph Campbell (I believe it is covered in the IP) where he was asked if you can have faith without having a personal relationship with god. I agree with him that why would you need faith if you had a personal relationship? The more I think about it and talk to people the more solidified my view becomes that the majority of Atheist (not all) have their current belief system because of events in their past that put them “off” of a creator/god.

Here are a couple of quotes from Joseph Campbell I find interesting.

“Moyers: But if God is the god we have only imagined, how can we stand in awe of our own creation?
Campbell: How can we be terrified by a dream? You have to break past your image of God to get through to the connoted illumination. The psychologist Jung has a relevant saying: "Religion is a defense against the experience of God."
...
There is a Hindu saying, "None but a god can worship a god." You have to identify yourself in some measure with whatever spiritual principle your god represents to you in order to worship him properly and live according to his word.”
― Joseph Campbell, The Power of Myth

“The idea of the supernatural as being something over and above the natural is a killing idea. In the Middle Ages this was the idea that finally turned that world into something like a wasteland, a land where people were living inauthentic lives, never doing a think they truly wanted to because the supernatural laws required them to live as directed by their clergy. In a wasteland, people are fulfilling purposes that are not properly theirs but have been put upon them as inescapable laws. This is a killer.... The spirit is really the bouquet of life. It is not something breathed into life, it comes out of life. This is one of the glorious things about the mother-goddess religions, where the world is the body of the Goddess, divine in itself, and divinity isn't something ruling over and above a fallen nature.... Our story of the fall in the Garden sees nature as corrupt; and that myth corrupts the whole world for us. Because nature is thought of as corrupt, every spontaneous act is sinful and must not be yielded to. You get a totally different civilization and a totally different way of living according to whether your myth presents nature as fallen or whether nature is in itself a manifestation of divinity, and the spirit is the revelation of the divinity that is inherent in nature.”
― Joseph Campbell, The Power of Myth

All throughout history there have been those that follow what they believe to be their fate and those that press on struggling to forge their own destiny. Which is right? Is either?

I think we all were, are, and will be what we necessarily were, are, and will be. It's in-between pre-written destiny and what we perceive to be free will. Everything that has happened leads us to make the decisions we make... This causality is inescapable because this order/cosmos is the nature of the Force. We don't exist in our future, but the Force does, meaning the Force "knows" what our future is (in every detail), whilst we do not.

Obviously this implies you have to believe the Force is atemporal (like I do). For someone who believes the Force evolves in time like we do, there can be no notion of inescapable destiny/fate, unless an additional, external entity to the Force also exists (and has written the Force's destiny).


note: this shouldn't be in "faiths", but "philosophy" (maybe "metaphysics")

The more I think about it and talk to people the more solidified my view becomes that the majority of Atheist (not all) have their current belief system because of events in their past that put them “off” of a creator/god.

My experience tells me otherwise, then again most atheists I know were born and remained such. I guess this is bound to be quite rare in the US as it's a very religious country. (There are americans in my town who fled the US due to persecution. Nothing too bad apparently, but it's not easy to not go to church and be open atheist where they're from. Funnily enough, england has state christianity with an official church that is involved in government)

@ Ren...

It is interesting to hear someone else that sees time and destiny in a similar manor as myself.

Depending on where they were from in the US it can be a very non-friendly to Atheist environment. In the “Bible Belt” and parts of the deep South and Mid-West there tends to be pockets of extremely religious and people very intolerant of other views. And on the other extreme, there are places which almost hate organized religion. So it all depends on where you’re from I guess. I happen to live on the edge of the Bible Belt but we are far enough out to have a healthy alternate life style community and freely and openly practicing Metaphysics Community. Tensions do get high from time to time… and sadly to say I believe that the Christians are the instigators of a majority of the conflicts.

People will always classify others...

And I dont care about that...lol...

People of China practiced both Confucianism and Taoism. They knew there was a purpose to both, and they found their own personal balance within it.

Classifications have purpose.

God is often conceived of as the supreme being and I guess you could also say the object of faith. God too is often conceived of those qualities you mentioned Wes, but here is the thing. I consider myself an Atheist Jedi, because I have a lack of belief in a God. Metaphorically anything can be true, which is how you have equated the God you mentioned and the Force. Whereas actually, lets take the ceationists perspective, they are not the same at all are they? God who created the world 6500 years ago and in seven days is clearly not the same as the Force of the Jedi.

I have a complete lack of belief in the creationist God, and all other gods which is why I am an atheist. The Force for me does not equate to anything like that, it isn't any sort of 'Being', it is more an observation, an inescapable connection between everything and a reasoning from that to understand and live in harmony.

It is like watching a leaf fall from a tree. "Oh! So that's how the world is!" Which doesn't necessitate a belief in any kind of 'being' and is, thus, atheistic.

That's how it works for me at least.

@ Akkarin…

I have always consider the term being in relationship to “god” as being short sited and one created by our limited understanding of the universe.

God is a term of exhalation for a process/presence which is beyond our corporeal understanding. Masons refer to it as the great architect. I figure one could relate the Force to as a part of all that exist in all times and makes up as it is comprised of the collective.

But who or what God is, is of little relevance to me. I know that it is beyond my understanding at this point. What is important is that (to me) there is something greater then myself. The Force is greater than me, governing and where I turn for inspiration as I search out the truth.

With that understanding, to me, it is almost as if the title/label Atheist rebukes the significance of the Force and puts the individual above as paramount.

What I’m getting from a lot of this is that many people are using the term Atheist to reject the Christian idea of God. But not the Force.

So, does the Force reject the idea of the Christian God? Or is it just another understanding of the same? Or is it unique in our understanding of its design?

If the later, then why hold on to labels and titles which describe opposition of something one religion could define as irrelevant?

I know I seem like I’m trying to be a hard-ass, but I am really just trying to understand.