A comparative between Dzogchen (Tantric Buddhism) and The Force

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12 Sep 2019 06:12 - 12 Sep 2019 06:13 #343567 by Enua
Dzogchen is a tradition of teachings aimed at discovering and continuing in the natural primordial state of being. It is a central teaching of the Nyingma school of Tibetan Buddhism and of Bon. In these traditions, Dzogchen is the highest and most definitive path of the nine vehicles to liberation.

The practitioners of this tradition want to discover and continue in what they call “rigpa” which means "unconfused knowledge of the Base, that is our own state”.The analogy given by Dzogchen masters is that one's true nature is like a mirror which reflects with complete openness, but is not affected by the reflections; or like a crystal ball that takes on the colour of the material on which it is placed without itself being changed. The knowledge that ensues from recognizing this mirror-like clarity is called rigpa. Rigpa then means the knowledge of the primordial ground of reality, or “the base”. The base is divided in two: Kadag and Lhundrub, or emptiness and spontaneous presence. But here we are not talking about a void, this emptiness has infinite potentiality. When potentiality manifests there are different aspects; this is called lhundrub. I will come back to these concepts later.

In Tibetan Buddhism, the Buddhas are thought to have three bodies or “layers”. They relate not only to the truth in us, as three aspects of the true nature of mind, but to the truth in everything:
The first body is the Dharmakaya, which corresponds to the sphere of space. In the words of Tulku Urgyen:

“Dharmakaya is like space. You cannot say there is any limit to space in any direction. No matter how far you go, you never reach a point where space stops and that is the end of space. Space is infinite in all directions; so is dharmakaya. Dharmakaya is all-pervasive and totally infinite, beyond any confines or limitations. This is so for the dharmakaya of all buddhas. There is no individual dharmakaya for each buddha, as there is no individual space for each country.”

The second Body is the Samboghakaya, which is a form body and corresponds to the sphere of energetic manifestation. The third body is the Nirmanakaya, which corresponds to the sphere of final manifestation, or matter.
The Nirmanakaya and the Sambghakaya are called the “rupakaya” or body of form.

So these three layers are: the space or emptiness from where everything arises or “kadag”. The manifested energy and the manifested matter or (lhundrub). Everything we perceive around us, including ourselves, is nirmanakaya; its light or energy is sambhogakaya; and its inherent truth, the dharmakaya. Now that I have introduced all the concepts I need, I want to postulate the following relation between the Dzogchen model and the Force model:

1. The Cosmic Force would be related to Kadag and Dharmakaya: the consciousness, the emptiness. This is the immanent part of the Force, the foundation and essence of everything.

2. The Living force would be related to Lhundrub and the Samboghakaya: the living manifestations of the Force both materialized and ethereal.

3. And finally, the Personal Force would be a subdivision of the Living Force, related to lhundrub and Nirmanakaya.

In Tantric Buddhism, the Mind (the real nature of mind, rigpa), the Voice or energy, and the Body are symbolized by the words: Om, Ah, Hum. Located on the head, larynx and heart.


As an additional thought, in Dzogchen, after one attains enlightenment there are some practices to attain what is called the “rainbow body” when the physical body self-liberates into a nonmaterial body of light (a Sambhogakāya) with the ability to exist and abide wherever and whenever is wanted. I can only think about Ben Kenobi and Yoda attaining something similar in the moment of their deaths.
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Last edit: 12 Sep 2019 06:13 by Enua.
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12 Sep 2019 22:43 #343582 by Adder
Thanks for posting your thoughts on this topic. I sorta share your interest here, and I tend to lean towards an onion model view of it. All aspects of one thing (the Force) rather then separate things.
1. Unifying Force, 2. essesence of Living Force, and 3. natured aspect of Living Force (nature).
For me, the distinction between unifying and living being that the unifying is only ever approached while alive such that one generally must die to reach it wholly. While the Rupakaya is the tangible part of the Force (as Force, being as close as can be gotten). The promise then of this Buddhism might be the ability to create a living Buddha that is both alive (rupakaya) but of dharmakaya?
That said, as part of practice to being more Buddha-ish or more Jedi, I think it's important to attribute from bits of 2 down to 1 in efforts to broaden and deepen ones practice. All things being relative, it's easier for me not to define things but ways.

Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
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17 Sep 2019 17:29 #343695 by ren
The unifying/cosmic force comprises of all things, dead or alive, matter, energy, and empty space. Brahman in Hinduism.

The personnal and living forces are aspects of it (I have never quite understood), and some people go for the star wars 'energy created by life' definition but it's fair to say there are many sects with different opinions. The personnal force is a direct Buddhist import, but it appears most go by a different definition which has more to do with reiki/energywork stuff.

Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.
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17 Sep 2019 23:36 - 17 Sep 2019 23:39 #343706 by Adder
The aspects (for me) are ways to bundle groupings of related practices around the connection to and application of what is often called the luminous mind. In Dzogchen it is related to the 'ground' which might be what clay is to pottery, for a practitioner.

So it's less about a theoretical cosmology and more about practices to connect to it IMO. The difference between a philosopher and a practitioner perhaps.

"Luminous beings we are, not this crude matter."

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_mind#Vajrayana
www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Ground_luminosity

Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
Last edit: 17 Sep 2019 23:39 by Adder.
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18 Sep 2019 01:26 #343707 by Enua
First of all I love to abide by Joseph Campbell's words: "We want to experience, not to understand".
This is why I really like the Dzogchen model, for it is not about understanding with the mind more than really experiencing your true nature. I like to see it like this (without many concepts): Cosmic Force is the infinite space and potentiality in which the Living Force arises and ceases. They are one but are different characteristics. This is related directly to The Base (the space and potentiality) and Manifestation. But in the end it's all one and the same.

Also, Dzogchen is part of Buddhist teachings but some teachers say it is only because this teaching was given within a Buddhist context, nothing else.

Thanks for joining the conversation!
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29 Sep 2019 15:22 #343966 by J. K. Barger
WOW.

BUMP THIS TILL THE WHEELS FALL OFF!!

Thank you for making this connection! I myself am very familiar with Tntrika, Dzogchen, Mahamudra, and the Trikaya, and have often thought about how it is related to the Force.

Before the variants of the Force became more 'various', there used to be 2 types of the Force; the Living and the Unifying. Many early dialogues in this vein questioned where "Light and Darkness" came into the equation, and eventually I started to see "personal Force" referred to.

While I do like and agree with your comparisons, I took a somewhat different approach ( and in a funny way, this difference seems to paralell the Mahamudra and Dzogchen difference, even though in actuality there is no difference in result, just difference in a approach).

Early upon my path I wrote a piece called the Three Marks of Kenobi, and detailed how Kenobi's description referred to the Force as tertiary concept. I think my main difference was that I approached it as :

The Living Force- Nirmanakaya
The Unifying Force- Sambhogakaya
The Will of the Force- Dharmakaya

I got some pushback on the Will of the Force part, so I decided to investigate more. Just as all of these are describing Mind/Emptiness and how it moves/manifests, so to do these Jedi terms, even WOTF, describe how the Force flows and can be felt.

This Trikaya concept is probably the best thing "imported" from a real world religion, mostly because it takes a singular concept and breaks it down (however heuristically) into a step by step process.

"A process for what?" I have asked.

Well, in Buddhism, it is to experience and reaquaint ourselves with our own primordial and inborn nature.

And doesn't that sound a lot like how real world folk envision the Force? Maybe not for all, but I do, and i explain it further through Ground, Path, and Result.

That said, if we look to the Lore, we can find that the soteriological aim for Jedi is "facility" with the Force; hence, FEEL THE FORCE.

If we hold the concepts of 'facility with the Force' and "experience the clear light of Mind" together, we can see that the Jedi and Siddhas were pointing at something very, very, very similar, if not, (arguably) the SAME thing.

With all of that as a basis, how would one the envision the Jedi Path, (in terms of 'the Ground, Path, and Result' schema?

This my friend, is a solid question many of us are working on. I myself have found a Mandala in the Code, and have been working on a schema/Path that brings these all together. If you'd like to discuss more, you can always PM me or whatever your preference is.

The Force is with you, always.
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01 Oct 2019 08:23 #344013 by Enua
It really feels like reading your entry was just like eating a candy. I'm really glad to find fellows trying to play with this concepts and path and also trying to expand the understanding and creation of a Jedi model of growth and of reality. That said, I really never considered The Will of the Force in the equation. It really blows my mind because it not just adds up with your entry, it also shines a big light on mounting models with Kabbalah and my most recent discovery and fun, non-dual Saivism. I'd really love to know more about the text you cite, The three marks of Kenobi. I really feel like, as you already said, same result, different approach and different bumps and perks, I might add.

In the end, in Dzogchen, Mahamudra and Tantrik non-dual Saivism, a full realization and liberation y the manifestation of our true nature in the three dimensions: OM-AH-HUM. Always white-blue-red across traditions. I find your model very pleasing and more inviting to inquire deeper. I really look forward to seeing what develops from this. Such a pleasure, I really find it amusing to mount and cross models.
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05 Nov 2019 04:57 #345208 by J. K. Barger
I'm glad you like this; I think it has some hefty implications regarding a Jedi's philosophy and practice, especially with things like the Rainbow Body.

I too am fascinated by the OM AH HUM complex, and it's applicability to the Jedi Path.

I've personally found it interesting in comparing it to the sections of the breath in pranayama: Inhale, Retain, Exhale, Rest," with the "Rest" being the pause in between one "Om Ah Hum" and the next. When I've worked with mantra complex and the breath, I have enjoyed it immensely.

This complex even found its way into a t-shirt design, that came with a matching hang-tag that was a moveable, layered mandala that could be reconfigured for a meditation practice. Very interesting stuff, and very applicable to the Path IMO.

The Force is with you, always.
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05 Nov 2019 15:54 #345222 by J. K. Barger
(Why can't we edit these posts?)

Sorry, I forgot to add a pic to show what I was talking about. For some reason it didn't upload, and I accidentally pressed cancel :/

Here ya go:

The Force is with you, always.

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05 Nov 2019 16:06 #345224 by Brick

J. K. Barger wrote: (Why can't we edit these posts?)

Sorry, I forgot to add a pic to show what I was talking about. For some reason it didn't upload, and I accidentally pressed cancel :/

Here ya go:


I think you forgot to upload the pic again? :laugh:

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