Mooji: "Forget about 'Enlightenment'"

The Buddha said that we're all enlightened. We just choose not to realize it.

It is like being a fish in an ocean searching for water.

Yes, my last sentence was misplaced. I was meditating on this concept earlier and it came to mind when I was thinking about this topic. But, in reply to your question, that is a very good one. Honestly, I've had my "ah ha!" moments, but not by trying for it. I was simply visualizing certain things when all of a sudden my mind went all clear and everything felt so connected and pure. Not sure if that's in relation to 'enlightenment', but, I sometimes ponder on whether it was or not. I've heard it described as mushin , or 'no mind', not to be confused with mindlessness. I might be off the mark here, again, but perhaps it's a start. I certainly wouldn't want to be confused as thinking myself an expert, or anything. lol

Connor Lidell wrote: The Buddha said that we're all enlightened. We just choose not to realize it.

It is like being a fish in an ocean searching for water.

Except for there is water and non-water. If everyone is enlightened however, (and that enlightenment makes no difference) then there cannot be indication for not being enlightened which renders the statement unfalsifiable and the term useless as it describes nothing specific (i.e. doesn't convey any concept - which is what words are for).

I'm okay with people talking meaningless horse poo on camera, but if its not, I'd love to understand. Does anyone here feel like there is any sense to what that Mooji character says, and if so, can someone, please, identify what it is? Not trying to be dismissive or anything, just genuinely interested if I'm missing something of value here...

From what I gather from the video, he's saying that searching for meaning becomes the obstruction to knowing.

Exactly, Luthien.

Gisteron, the issue is that you're thinking with a linear mind. That something has to have a reason, or that there is a dictionary definition for everything.

Mooji is saying that all these dissertations and books and treatises and speeches are useless. They don't mean anything. Enlightenment isn't found by studying or memorizing texts. That is only the very first step, and it is meaningless on its own.

Enlightenment is less an achievement, and more of an attitude, an understanding. It is a connection with the divine. And, we've already found that. All beings are enlightened, we are all connected. (I can't put that in your "definition" "intellectual" mindset because it doesn't work in those faculties) The problem is that we get caught up in the "I MUST achieve something!" that we forget to live.

Enlightenment means that you realize that everything is wonderful. I'm developing a no-nonsense way of approaching enlightenment, and while it's not perfect, here's my method:

1. Gratefulness. - The first step is realizing that we are lucky to even experience anything. When we do something bad or do something good, we should be grateful for it. We are lucky to feel, to love, to have pain, to hate, to love. For some people, it takes their whole life to reach this state. They are constantly bombarded by what "must be done", by "duty", by "competition". They fall victim to the natural states of being human in this society. Feeling like they objectively "have to have" something, or "if they make straight A's they'll achieve ___". We put unnecessary meaning to things that hold no meaning. It's an optimistic Nihilism, if you will. (This corresponds to the four noble truths: Realize there is suffering, and there is a cure for suffering)
2. Mindfulness. - Now that you are grateful, you can ponder the world from an outsider's perspective. The Buddha did this when he achieved Enlightenment. He realized that it was ok to eat the food provided to him, and he suddenly didn't put that pressure on himself to find "it". There was NO it to find. Like you said in an earlier comment, you didn't know what "it" referred to. Sometimes, that word has no antecedent. When you are pondering the world, you see the pain and suffering, and you can train yourself to be a good person and have perspective. You can help others. (this corresponds to the 8-fold path, Right Action, etc.)
3. Action. - The most important step is to act. Mindfulness leads to change. Change in the world, change in your heart.

Throughout all three stages, meditation (of some kind) is a must. Focus and determination are required. Not because you have to achieve some sort of spiritual state, but because you have to be purposefully pursuing it all day every day.

Maybe that helps a little?

There is no goal to enlightenment because it isn't trapped by a linear perspective (do this = get this).

Connor Lidell wrote: Gisteron, the issue is that you're thinking with a linear mind. That something has to have a reason, or that there is a dictionary definition for everything.

I'm not sure how this is called linear, but might as well just take that. Now, I don't see what's wrong with it, and indeed, I've yet to see an approach to the world that works at all while being any different. As for definitions, yes, I find that in order to communicate a message both paties have to use labels the meaning of which is agreed upon. I can't say tree and really mean a cat and expect anyone to understand. And if a word like 'it' refers to nothing, then none is the value of the message.

Mooji is saying that all these dissertations and books and treatises and speeches are useless. They don't mean anything. Enlightenment isn't found by studying or memorizing texts. That is only the very first step, and it is meaningless on its own.

Fine, so what is enlightenment again? You see, if he doesn't explain what it is that is to be understood or why it ought to be understood, then, again, what becomes meaningless is the message he gives. And besides, if that's the method we went about any other actually useful knowledge we would still dwell in caves to live up to 30 years max. So unless that enlightenment thing he is talking about is something demonstrated to be urgently needed, I guess I'll stick to the useful stuff we achieved during the past three to five thousand years.

Enlightenment is less an achievement, and more of an attitude [of what? is it describable], an understanding [again, of what?]. It is a connection with the divine [what sort of connection? which divine exactly?]. And, we've already found that [who has? where?]. All beings are enlightened, we are all connected [again, by what? and how could we tell, if we weren't?]. (I can't put that in your "definition" "intellectual" mindset because it doesn't work in those faculties) The problem is that we get caught up in the "I MUST achieve something!" that we forget to live.

I'm glad you admit that 'this' is not something that can be put into meaningful words. Rest assured however, that this is not the way you go about anything else and the more important something is, the better of an understanding you usually strive to get of it. So I'm not buying that there even is something that is the among the most important things, that cannot be understood. And if there is and it can't be, then why bother?

Now, with the last sentence I agree in that our worries often rob us our joy in life. It just happens to not have anything to do with the fuzzy 'spiritual awareness' thing, so...

Enlightenment means that you realize that everything is wonderful.

I'm not even sure if I'd be enlightened, then, by that definition. On the one hand hardly anything is wonderful as witnessed by the billions of representatives of pretty much every sentient and non-sentient life form we know exist or ever existed, struggling to survive for a little more time just to die a death as agonizing as its life was. On the other hand, there is of course quite an inspiring beauty even in this, never mind what else there is out in this marvelous, incredible universe. So I'm sort of appreciative of the latter.. But 'everything is wonderful' would have to be factually wrong, if it weren't already awfully vague.

here's my method:

1. Gratefulness. - The first step is realizing that we are lucky to even experience anything.

Agreed. We are very privileged to live at a time like this and to live at all, for that matter. The odds against our existence in the form it has taken aren't too high.

When we do something bad or do something good, we should be grateful for it.

Grateful to whom would that be? Is there anyone in particular who is responsible for this? And what about all those people and sentient beings who have reasons to regret ever having come to life? Ought they, too, to be grateful? And again, to whom exactly?

We are lucky to feel, to love, to have pain, to hate, to love. For some people, it takes their whole life to reach this state. They are constantly bombarded by what "must be done", by "duty", by "competition". They fall victim to the natural states of being human in this society. Feeling like they objectively "have to have" something, or "if they make straight A's they'll achieve ___". We put unnecessary meaning to things that hold no meaning. It's an optimistic Nihilism, if you will. (This corresponds to the four noble truths: Realize there is suffering, and there is a cure for suffering)

What do you mean by things that hold no meaning? Meaning isn't an objective thing. Meaning has what we decide has meaning. And if my life, my carrier, my fellow primates and their lives and well-being has meaning to me, I think those are pretty good things to start from and quite frankly I'd find a person who doesn't value those rather cold, not to say outright despicable for that very reason.

2. Mindfulness. - Now that you are grateful, you can ponder the world from an outsider's perspective. The Buddha did this when he achieved Enlightenment. He realized that it was ok to eat the food provided to him, and he suddenly didn't put that pressure on himself to find "it". There was NO it to find. Like you said in an earlier comment, you didn't know what "it" referred to. Sometimes, that word has no antecedent. When you are pondering the world, you see the pain and suffering, and you can train yourself to be a good person and have perspective. You can help others. (this corresponds to the 8-fold path, Right Action, etc.)
3. Action. - The most important step is to act. Mindfulness leads to change. Change in the world, change in your heart.

Wait a minute, didn't you just criticize my cause and effect thinking and go on about how those earthly needs are superfluous and their satisfaction meaningless? Why care about helping others, why try to be a good person? Why is a path that is directly dependant on earthly values helpful in reaching enlightenment and how does that compute with the fact that enlightenment itself cannot be a result of a linear cause? I'm confused...

Throughout all three stages, meditation (of some kind) is a must.

Since the differences between meditation and relaxation are none, the terms have the same meaning. Relaxation is a bodily necessity irrespective of any 'spiritual journeys'. Thus it cannot be a requirement, for then you might as well add water, food and oxygen to the list.

Focus and determination are required. Not because you have to achieve some sort of spiritual state, but because you have to be purposefully pursuing it all day every day.

Why? Didn't Mooji say that to focus and to determine oneself onto and pursue the path to enlightenment is precisely what doesn't lead there? Hm, contradictions...

Maybe that helps a little?

There is no goal to enlightenment because it isn't trapped by a linear perspective (do this = get this).

Er, no... I'm even more confused than I was before... And for the linear thing... Ye, living in a less capitalistic system, so I don't quite identify with that struggle for achievement problem just yet. Anyway, you still should make a choice wether you think its wrong entirely or wether it is applicable at least to degrees and in certain areas. Because if you're saying that the system is wrong, you can't use that anymore to build up a pursuit of enlightenment enterprise of any sorts.

However, thank you for your effort trying to explain this to me. I'm afraid I've still got a long way to go, and oddly enough, its been getting longer in the recent years.

I'm not done yet. I think I realize what the issue is. I will attempt once more.

I am, instead of trying to lecture, going to ask YOU about YOUR philosophy. I hope you'll indulge me. For me to make a meaningful connection, shouldn't I first see if I can understand your current view point?

Gisteron wrote: I can't say tree and really mean a cat and expect anyone to understand. And if a word like 'it' refers to nothing, then none is the value of the message.

So, what is the point of value? This is something I'd like you to explain to me.

So unless that enlightenment thing he is talking about is something demonstrated to be urgently needed, I guess I'll stick to the useful stuff we achieved during the past three to five thousand years.

You do not need to be enlightened. That's certainly your choice! So, why are you searching for it?

Enlightenment is less an achievement, and more of an attitude [of what? is it describable]

Let's try removing buzz words... Enlightenment is a particular state of being. It's opposite would be non-Enlightened. The first step of being Enlightened is to be grateful. This means you do not judge the actions that happen to you. If something good happens to you, this is good. If something bad happens to you, this is good. Gratefulness (you asked "to whom") is directed toward the chance to experience.

Science granted you life. Shouldn't you be accepting to it? Why would you complain about something silly like an arm being cut off or your mother being killed? Who says these are bad? That's human talk. That's "intelligence" getting in the way of experience.

Now, we get to something tough... does that statement above make you uncomfortable? Would you hurt yourself (emotionally or physically) if your mother died? (of course, this is situational... insert somebody else close to you if this isn't applicable)

I'm glad you admit that 'this' is not something that can be put into meaningful words. Rest assured however, that this is not the way you go about anything else and the more important something is, the better of an understanding you usually strive to get of it. So I'm not buying that there even is something that is the among the most important things, that cannot be understood. And if there is and it can't be, then why bother?

I'm sorry, I'm having a hard time understanding what this means.

Enlightenment means that you realize that everything is wonderful.

This is only the "first" step. I made a mistake, try this:

(realizing) Enlightenment means that you realize that everything is wonderful.

But 'everything is wonderful' would have to be factually wrong, if it weren't already awfully vague.

Would you rather not exist?

What do you mean by things that hold no meaning? Meaning isn't an objective thing. Meaning has what we decide has meaning.

Yes, it may be cold. But, it's only the first step. This Enlightenment realization requires you to remove everything you've ever thought of before. So, yeah, you have to back to the state of "apathy" of sorts. You should have no meaning to anything. Then, you begin to assign meaning again based on gratefulness.

Wait a minute, didn't you just criticize my cause and effect thinking and go on about how those earthly needs are superfluous and their satisfaction meaningless? Why care about helping others, why try to be a good person? Why is a path that is directly dependant on earthly values helpful in reaching enlightenment and how does that compute with the fact that enlightenment itself cannot be a result of a linear cause? I'm confused...

Well, we are on earth. If you want to find something unearthly, go to Christianity. Or Mars.

Yes, I criticized them because they are governed by your version of reality, which is not in realization of Enlightenment. When you reach that level, you can make other choices.

Again, you don't have to realize enlightenment. Nobody really cares if you do or not. It's completely up to you. The benefits are merely a different perspective (due to the realization).

Since the differences between meditation and relaxation are none, the terms have the same meaning. Relaxation is a bodily necessity irrespective of any 'spiritual journeys'. Thus it cannot be a requirement, for then you might as well add water, food and oxygen to the list.

No. This is incorrect. Meditation = Focus, not relaxation.

Why? Didn't Mooji say that to focus and to determine oneself onto and pursue the path to enlightenment is precisely what doesn't lead there? Hm, contradictions...

No contradiction. You're not focusing on your path. You're focusing on gratefulness.

We put unnecessary meaning to things that hold no meaning. It's an optimistic Nihilism, if you will. (This corresponds to the four noble truths: Realize there is suffering, and there is a cure for suffering)

"Thoughts are worthless when one is as good as any other. Welcome back to absolutism."- David Edge

I think this illustrates the problem I have with most views here.

no judgements, no labels, no definitions, words mean nothing, all is illusion, one thing is as goood as another as there is no bad or good really.

How absolute is that?

How limited is that?

How sad is that?

As for optimistic nihilism, I have yet to see much of anything mentioned here in an optimistic light.

Welcome to enlightenment and being a Jedi, its apathy that you can feel good about, even as you point out how bad everything is.

I'd like to note, for Khaos and others, that I'm not interested in (realizing) Enlightenment. And, haven't been since I wrote a paper called "Anti-Buddhism". But, I know a lot about it.

As for Khaos' great point, it's true. There are a lot of absolutes in Buddhism because Buddha created a path. If you want to follow it, you do it. Otherwise, you're not doing it... you're following your own path, not Buddha's.

Isn't it, in a sense, the point? Absolutist views are meant to be applicable, not followed. This generally leads to cultism.