Discussion: TotJO Culture Problems

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27 Dec 2017 14:40 #309849 by Manu

OB1Shinobi wrote: As long as Ive been here, there have always been those seeking a to make totjo into a "safe space" where the rules create a culture that prioritizes safety from offense as the highest social value.... which i believe to be ultimately debilitating ESPECIALLY TO THE SENSITIVE PEOPLE ITS MEANT TO PROTECT.


We agree.

I personally do not think we need more rules, simply a higher bar for people who represent the Order, and could thus be perceived as holding an unfair leverage over newer members.

It is a complicated issue because TOTJO is so many things for different people.

And despite advocating for more kindness displayed by Initiates and above, kindness cannot be enforced.

Problems that remain persistently insoluble should always be suspected as questions asked in the wrong way - Alan Watts
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27 Dec 2017 15:58 - 27 Dec 2017 15:59 #309856 by Kyrin Wyldstar
Replied by Kyrin Wyldstar on topic Discussion: TotJO Culture Problems

Manu wrote:

OB1Shinobi wrote: As long as Ive been here, there have always been those seeking a to make totjo into a "safe space" where the rules create a culture that prioritizes safety from offense as the highest social value.... which i believe to be ultimately debilitating ESPECIALLY TO THE SENSITIVE PEOPLE ITS MEANT TO PROTECT.


We agree.

I personally do not think we need more rules, simply a higher bar for people who represent the Order, and could thus be perceived as holding an unfair leverage over newer members.

It is a complicated issue because TOTJO is so many things for different people.

And despite advocating for more kindness displayed by Initiates and above, kindness cannot be enforced.


This was really the point of my post on page one as well. This place will never be able to regulate kindness. Instead kindness needs to be felt. It can be felt best through personal interaction. Personal interaction does not typically happen on a two dimensional post board. Open the rules on the board but then practice personal interaction through real life.
Last edit: 27 Dec 2017 15:59 by Kyrin Wyldstar.

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27 Dec 2017 16:04 #309858 by Kit

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Manu wrote:

OB1Shinobi wrote: As long as Ive been here, there have always been those seeking a to make totjo into a "safe space" where the rules create a culture that prioritizes safety from offense as the highest social value.... which i believe to be ultimately debilitating ESPECIALLY TO THE SENSITIVE PEOPLE ITS MEANT TO PROTECT.


We agree.

I personally do not think we need more rules, simply a higher bar for people who represent the Order, and could thus be perceived as holding an unfair leverage over newer members.

It is a complicated issue because TOTJO is so many things for different people.

And despite advocating for more kindness displayed by Initiates and above, kindness cannot be enforced.


This was really the point of my post on page one as well. This place will never be able to regulate kindness. Instead kindness needs to be felt. It can be felt best through personal interaction. Personal interaction does not typically happen on a two dimensional post board. Open the rules on the board but then practice personal interaction through real life.


This is why I felt it was a cultural issue here, rather than a rule one. Perhaps instead of 'rules', they could be guidelines? Something we could look at and go "Hey, this is what's expected of a [rank], do you feel you're upholding these values in this instance?"

This really is a tough subject because I do feel that there needs to be a change, but I don't want to stiffle it or sterilize the environment either.
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27 Dec 2017 16:12 #309859 by Arisaig
Replied by Arisaig on topic Discussion: TotJO Culture Problems

Kit wrote: This is why I felt it was a cultural issue here, rather than a rule one. Perhaps instead of 'rules', they could be guidelines? Something we could look at and go "Hey, this is what's expected of a [rank], do you feel you're upholding these values in this instance?"

This really is a tough subject because I do feel that there needs to be a change, but I don't want to stiffle it or sterilize the environment either.


I was under the assumption that the doctrine was pretty much guidelines on how one should conduct themselves here.

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27 Dec 2017 16:18 - 27 Dec 2017 16:48 #309861 by OB1Shinobi
What about an optional pledge? Like a voluntary statement of intent by individuals to hold themselves accountable to certain standards?

"I ob1shinobi will make a formal commitment to..... blah blah blah" lol
Whatever the specific points might be. This would not be the sort of thing anyone could enforce or punish anyone over, but something we could all look at and see for ourselves whether we are living up to our own standards?

Is that stupid, lol ? Would it be enough? Do you think it would still make a difference six months down the road?

People are complicated.
Last edit: 27 Dec 2017 16:48 by OB1Shinobi.
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27 Dec 2017 16:21 #309862 by Kit

Arisaig wrote:

Kit wrote: This is why I felt it was a cultural issue here, rather than a rule one. Perhaps instead of 'rules', they could be guidelines? Something we could look at and go "Hey, this is what's expected of a [rank], do you feel you're upholding these values in this instance?"

This really is a tough subject because I do feel that there needs to be a change, but I don't want to stiffle it or sterilize the environment either.


I was under the assumption that the doctrine was pretty much guidelines on how one should conduct themselves here.


It's a bit vague I think for that. I can give someone an uncalled for ass chewing and still believe in their sanctity as a human person :)
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27 Dec 2017 16:21 #309863 by Senan
Replied by Senan on topic Discussion: TotJO Culture Problems
Like Ros, I too have been following this thread closely and I am happy to see a constructive and open dialogue happening here. I hope you all can trust me when I say that I am taking all of the responses here into account and making sure they are considered as we work toward establishing some new procedures and trying out some new things.

Specifically, I want to address the concern about being overly sensitive or being too quick to swing the ban hammer on people who are simply attempting to be honest and transparent. This is a difficult judgment call to make, and I have made mistakes enforcing rules here in the past. What I have learned up to this point is that different personalities need to be handled differently, and it takes some practice to understand how to handle certain conversations. For example, I know that I can be blunt, direct, sarcastic, and even downright condescending while debating something with Zenchi, OB1, or MadHatter and they will not only hold their own, but throw it right back. In the end, we all typically walk away feeling just fine about it and hopefully we've all learned a few things along the way. This may not always be appropriate or ideal, but that is the relationship we have established. We just have to be very careful when others get involved in the conversations because they may not understand these informal rules we have established among ourselves.

On the flip side of this, it is always possible to be honest and transparent without being sarcastic, condescending, or mean. We can be direct and compassionate at the same time. It could be as simple as saying "I think you are mistaken" instead of saying "that is stupid." Sometimes we need to acknowledge the value of another's opinion even when we disagree. Instead of saying "you're wrong," I can try saying "I hear you, but this is why I disagree." It isn't always easy to do this when we are passionate about a topic or feel defensive, but it is something we have to work on as individuals and as a community.

When it comes to punishing those who are unwilling to remain polite or at least civil, I agree that simply banning people or deleting posts is not a productive or helpful way to proceed. While it has been effective in the past, it does little to change the behavior or foster any growth. What I am proposing instead is that we establish lessons for both sides of the conflict. We can ask everyone to take a step away from the conversation and look at their own behavior. We may have to lock a thread for a period of time, but that is better than punishing people. When we recognize someone acting in a way that is detrimental or harmful to others, instead of banning them, I would rather direct them toward a lesson in respectful debate that focuses on issues, not people. The person taking offense at the behavior may also benefit from a lesson in how to separate emotion from the logical argument or how to recognize various tactics used in argument that are meant to inflame emotions. It shouldn't be seen as a punishment, but rather a real world opportunity to learn.

As I've said, this will take some practice and time to iron out the wrinkles, but I believe we are all capable of finding the balance between supportive compassion and lively debate.

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27 Dec 2017 16:26 - 27 Dec 2017 16:27 #309865 by Arisaig
Replied by Arisaig on topic Discussion: TotJO Culture Problems

Kit wrote:

Arisaig wrote:

Kit wrote: This is why I felt it was a cultural issue here, rather than a rule one. Perhaps instead of 'rules', they could be guidelines? Something we could look at and go "Hey, this is what's expected of a [rank], do you feel you're upholding these values in this instance?"

This really is a tough subject because I do feel that there needs to be a change, but I don't want to stiffle it or sterilize the environment either.


I was under the assumption that the doctrine was pretty much guidelines on how one should conduct themselves here.


It's a bit vague I think for that. I can give someone an uncalled for ass chewing and still believe in their sanctity as a human person :)


I was thinking along the lines of these two teachings:


2. Jedi maintain a clear mind; which can be achieved through meditation and contemplation. Our minds can become unduly troubled and concerned with the happenings of the world. We must work on overcoming our individual issues through training and diligence.

We tend to talk without thinking. Meditation and contemplation. We allow ourselves to get caught up in the problems rather than focusing.

3. Jedi are aware of the future impacts of action and inaction and of the influence of the past, but live in and focus on the Now. We let ourselves flow like water through the events around us. We embrace the ever changing and fluid world, adapting and changing as it does.

And as a result of not thinking, we tend to lose sight of the future and how our actions can affect it. I've seen this time and time again, people making a decision that seems inconsequential in the moment, but ends up really messing things up down the line.

But also the entirety of the Creed.

EDIT: And that's just me skimming over the doctrine. I'm sure I could make entire posts on each part,
but for the sake of brevity, I'll leave it at that.
Last edit: 27 Dec 2017 16:27 by Arisaig.

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27 Dec 2017 16:53 #309873 by Manu

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: This was really the point of my post on page one as well. This place will never be able to regulate kindness. Instead kindness needs to be felt. It can be felt best through personal interaction. Personal interaction does not typically happen on a two dimensional post board. Open the rules on the board but then practice personal interaction through real life.


So, does this mean you will be travelling to Ecuador to meet me? I would certainly like to meet you in person.

Problems that remain persistently insoluble should always be suspected as questions asked in the wrong way - Alan Watts
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27 Dec 2017 17:01 #309874 by Tellahane
I think it will come down to a common ground of "preferred qualities" perhaps, that is something to aim for and work towards, not something that will be flipped on like a light switch. Training comes in many forms and many methods, physical, mental, emotional etc...but the thing with all training is its hardest when you first start, and the more you do it the more your used to it, the more things become muscle/mental memory, the easier it becomes until it's pretty much natural.

The common ground of qualities is something to strive for, to train for and eventually be without effort, which is right up my ally being more of a taoist Jedi myself. As an example, I firmly believe it is a great Jedi quality to have if at anytime someone calls you out on something, even if you don't agree or believe it right then and there, you still take a step back and take time to go meditate or clear your head or give it a day and reflect on it to decide if maybe what they are saying is true and your just blinded to it. Now Not saying doubt everything but at least consider it. There's nothing wrong with doing that and coming to the same conclusion that you weren't, but if you at least took the time and made the effort, as opposed to immediately hitting the reply button and getting aggressive about it, I find that an excellent quality. One must always assume that anything and everything they may know may be wrong or inaccurate. I mean how long was the world "flat"? New things get disprove/proven all the time we don't have a perfect understanding of any one thing in our existence at all really. One should always keep an open mind. I think coming up with qualities like that, related to doctrine would be a more useful goal, as it is things that you can train for and work towards, and have room for trial and error and growth.

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