Discussion: TotJO Culture Problems

OB1Shinobi wrote: As long as Ive been here, there have always been those seeking a to make totjo into a "safe space" where the rules create a culture that prioritizes safety from offense as the highest social value.... which i believe to be ultimately debilitating ESPECIALLY TO THE SENSITIVE PEOPLE ITS MEANT TO PROTECT.

We agree.

I personally do not think we need more rules, simply a higher bar for people who represent the Order, and could thus be perceived as holding an unfair leverage over newer members.

It is a complicated issue because TOTJO is so many things for different people.

And despite advocating for more kindness displayed by Initiates and above, kindness cannot be enforced.

Manu wrote:

OB1Shinobi wrote: As long as Ive been here, there have always been those seeking a to make totjo into a "safe space" where the rules create a culture that prioritizes safety from offense as the highest social value.... which i believe to be ultimately debilitating ESPECIALLY TO THE SENSITIVE PEOPLE ITS MEANT TO PROTECT.

We agree.

I personally do not think we need more rules, simply a higher bar for people who represent the Order, and could thus be perceived as holding an unfair leverage over newer members.

It is a complicated issue because TOTJO is so many things for different people.

And despite advocating for more kindness displayed by Initiates and above, kindness cannot be enforced.

This was really the point of my post on page one as well. This place will never be able to regulate kindness. Instead kindness needs to be felt. It can be felt best through personal interaction. Personal interaction does not typically happen on a two dimensional post board. Open the rules on the board but then practice personal interaction through real life.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Manu wrote:

OB1Shinobi wrote: As long as Ive been here, there have always been those seeking a to make totjo into a "safe space" where the rules create a culture that prioritizes safety from offense as the highest social value.... which i believe to be ultimately debilitating ESPECIALLY TO THE SENSITIVE PEOPLE ITS MEANT TO PROTECT.

We agree.

I personally do not think we need more rules, simply a higher bar for people who represent the Order, and could thus be perceived as holding an unfair leverage over newer members.

It is a complicated issue because TOTJO is so many things for different people.

And despite advocating for more kindness displayed by Initiates and above, kindness cannot be enforced.

This was really the point of my post on page one as well. This place will never be able to regulate kindness. Instead kindness needs to be felt. It can be felt best through personal interaction. Personal interaction does not typically happen on a two dimensional post board. Open the rules on the board but then practice personal interaction through real life.

This is why I felt it was a cultural issue here, rather than a rule one. Perhaps instead of 'rules', they could be guidelines? Something we could look at and go "Hey, this is what's expected of a [rank], do you feel you're upholding these values in this instance?"

This really is a tough subject because I do feel that there needs to be a change, but I don't want to stiffle it or sterilize the environment either.

Kit wrote: This is why I felt it was a cultural issue here, rather than a rule one. Perhaps instead of 'rules', they could be guidelines? Something we could look at and go "Hey, this is what's expected of a [rank], do you feel you're upholding these values in this instance?"

This really is a tough subject because I do feel that there needs to be a change, but I don't want to stiffle it or sterilize the environment either.

I was under the assumption that the doctrine was pretty much guidelines on how one should conduct themselves here.

What about an optional pledge? Like a voluntary statement of intent by individuals to hold themselves accountable to certain standards?

"I ob1shinobi will make a formal commitment to..... blah blah blah" lol
Whatever the specific points might be. This would not be the sort of thing anyone could enforce or punish anyone over, but something we could all look at and see for ourselves whether we are living up to our own standards?

Is that stupid, lol ? Would it be enough? Do you think it would still make a difference six months down the road?

Arisaig wrote:

Kit wrote: This is why I felt it was a cultural issue here, rather than a rule one. Perhaps instead of 'rules', they could be guidelines? Something we could look at and go "Hey, this is what's expected of a [rank], do you feel you're upholding these values in this instance?"

This really is a tough subject because I do feel that there needs to be a change, but I don't want to stiffle it or sterilize the environment either.

I was under the assumption that the doctrine was pretty much guidelines on how one should conduct themselves here.

It's a bit vague I think for that. I can give someone an uncalled for ass chewing and still believe in their sanctity as a human person

Like Ros, I too have been following this thread closely and I am happy to see a constructive and open dialogue happening here. I hope you all can trust me when I say that I am taking all of the responses here into account and making sure they are considered as we work toward establishing some new procedures and trying out some new things.

Specifically, I want to address the concern about being overly sensitive or being too quick to swing the ban hammer on people who are simply attempting to be honest and transparent. This is a difficult judgment call to make, and I have made mistakes enforcing rules here in the past. What I have learned up to this point is that different personalities need to be handled differently, and it takes some practice to understand how to handle certain conversations. For example, I know that I can be blunt, direct, sarcastic, and even downright condescending while debating something with Zenchi, OB1, or MadHatter and they will not only hold their own, but throw it right back. In the end, we all typically walk away feeling just fine about it and hopefully we've all learned a few things along the way. This may not always be appropriate or ideal, but that is the relationship we have established. We just have to be very careful when others get involved in the conversations because they may not understand these informal rules we have established among ourselves.

On the flip side of this, it is always possible to be honest and transparent without being sarcastic, condescending, or mean. We can be direct and compassionate at the same time. It could be as simple as saying "I think you are mistaken" instead of saying "that is stupid." Sometimes we need to acknowledge the value of another's opinion even when we disagree. Instead of saying "you're wrong," I can try saying "I hear you, but this is why I disagree." It isn't always easy to do this when we are passionate about a topic or feel defensive, but it is something we have to work on as individuals and as a community.

When it comes to punishing those who are unwilling to remain polite or at least civil, I agree that simply banning people or deleting posts is not a productive or helpful way to proceed. While it has been effective in the past, it does little to change the behavior or foster any growth. What I am proposing instead is that we establish lessons for both sides of the conflict. We can ask everyone to take a step away from the conversation and look at their own behavior. We may have to lock a thread for a period of time, but that is better than punishing people. When we recognize someone acting in a way that is detrimental or harmful to others, instead of banning them, I would rather direct them toward a lesson in respectful debate that focuses on issues, not people. The person taking offense at the behavior may also benefit from a lesson in how to separate emotion from the logical argument or how to recognize various tactics used in argument that are meant to inflame emotions. It shouldn't be seen as a punishment, but rather a real world opportunity to learn.

As I've said, this will take some practice and time to iron out the wrinkles, but I believe we are all capable of finding the balance between supportive compassion and lively debate.

Kit wrote:

Arisaig wrote:

Kit wrote: This is why I felt it was a cultural issue here, rather than a rule one. Perhaps instead of 'rules', they could be guidelines? Something we could look at and go "Hey, this is what's expected of a [rank], do you feel you're upholding these values in this instance?"

This really is a tough subject because I do feel that there needs to be a change, but I don't want to stiffle it or sterilize the environment either.

I was under the assumption that the doctrine was pretty much guidelines on how one should conduct themselves here.

It's a bit vague I think for that. I can give someone an uncalled for ass chewing and still believe in their sanctity as a human person

I was thinking along the lines of these two teachings:


2. Jedi maintain a clear mind; which can be achieved through meditation and contemplation. Our minds can become unduly troubled and concerned with the happenings of the world. We must work on overcoming our individual issues through training and diligence.

We tend to talk without thinking. Meditation and contemplation. We allow ourselves to get caught up in the problems rather than focusing.

3. Jedi are aware of the future impacts of action and inaction and of the influence of the past, but live in and focus on the Now. We let ourselves flow like water through the events around us. We embrace the ever changing and fluid world, adapting and changing as it does.

And as a result of not thinking, we tend to lose sight of the future and how our actions can affect it. I've seen this time and time again, people making a decision that seems inconsequential in the moment, but ends up really messing things up down the line.

But also the entirety of the Creed.

EDIT: And that's just me skimming over the doctrine. I'm sure I could make entire posts on each part,
but for the sake of brevity, I'll leave it at that.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: This was really the point of my post on page one as well. This place will never be able to regulate kindness. Instead kindness needs to be felt. It can be felt best through personal interaction. Personal interaction does not typically happen on a two dimensional post board. Open the rules on the board but then practice personal interaction through real life.

So, does this mean you will be travelling to Ecuador to meet me? I would certainly like to meet you in person.

I think it will come down to a common ground of "preferred qualities" perhaps, that is something to aim for and work towards, not something that will be flipped on like a light switch. Training comes in many forms and many methods, physical, mental, emotional etc...but the thing with all training is its hardest when you first start, and the more you do it the more your used to it, the more things become muscle/mental memory, the easier it becomes until it's pretty much natural.

The common ground of qualities is something to strive for, to train for and eventually be without effort, which is right up my ally being more of a taoist Jedi myself. As an example, I firmly believe it is a great Jedi quality to have if at anytime someone calls you out on something, even if you don't agree or believe it right then and there, you still take a step back and take time to go meditate or clear your head or give it a day and reflect on it to decide if maybe what they are saying is true and your just blinded to it. Now Not saying doubt everything but at least consider it. There's nothing wrong with doing that and coming to the same conclusion that you weren't, but if you at least took the time and made the effort, as opposed to immediately hitting the reply button and getting aggressive about it, I find that an excellent quality. One must always assume that anything and everything they may know may be wrong or inaccurate. I mean how long was the world "flat"? New things get disprove/proven all the time we don't have a perfect understanding of any one thing in our existence at all really. One should always keep an open mind. I think coming up with qualities like that, related to doctrine would be a more useful goal, as it is things that you can train for and work towards, and have room for trial and error and growth.

Tellahane wrote: One must always assume that anything and everything they may know may be wrong or inaccurate. I mean how long was the world "flat"? New things get disprove/proven all the time we don't have a perfect understanding of any one thing in our existence at all really..

Fun fact, it was never believed to be flat. Even ancient Egyptians knew it to be round. Reason why they never tried to go around to Asia through the Atlantic is they didn't know about the Americas, and their math made it seem like a suicide mission. Only reason why Columbus was ever allowed to was because he theorised the world was smaller than it actually is. The "Flat Earth" thing was an argument used to make people feel stupid, because everyone knows the earth is round. There, that's a thing you know now.

Sorry, had to say it. Ignorance, yet Knowledge and all that Jedi Jazz.

Back on track:

Tellahane wrote: I think it will come down to a common ground of "preferred qualities" perhaps, that is something to aim for and work towards, not something that will be flipped on like a light switch. Training comes in many forms and many methods, physical, mental, emotional etc...but the thing with all training is its hardest when you first start, and the more you do it the more your used to it, the more things become muscle/mental memory, the easier it becomes until it's pretty much natural.

But what of those that have given up on their training. Many here don't pursue training here, or even at all, preferring to use this place this as any other forum. Other people have given up on their apprenticeships and prefer to not move forward. I find those that are new here are amongst some of the better Jedi here, as they've not yet become embroiled in the problems this place has and have undergone more training than previous "generations".

And about training... what of those that haven't undergone training as many here have? An issue brought up time and time again is that Imitates have done more training here (and become arguably better jedi) that those that clutch onto that "grandmaster" title. Whats the point of asking people to grow when those on top sit pretty and refuse to do the training expected of those lower in rank?

Manu wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: This was really the point of my post on page one as well. This place will never be able to regulate kindness. Instead kindness needs to be felt. It can be felt best through personal interaction. Personal interaction does not typically happen on a two dimensional post board. Open the rules on the board but then practice personal interaction through real life.

So, does this mean you will be travelling to Ecuador to meet me? I would certainly like to meet you in person.

My world tour begins next week and Ecuador is my first stop!

Arisaig wrote:
I was thinking along the lines of these two teachings:

2. Jedi maintain a clear mind; which can be achieved through meditation and contemplation. Our minds can become unduly troubled and co.....

The problem with trying to enforce anything like this becomes impossible for two reasons. The first is that everyone is in a different place when it comes to those words and everyone has a different interpretation. The second is that we dont live our lives by building connections to words, we live our lives by building connections to people. I dont care how hard you try, you will never be able to fully live up to any creed, there is no emotional connection. Instead you have a much better chance of living up to a promise to another individual. One in whom you can build an emotional connection with.

Arisaig wrote: And about training... what of those that haven't undergone training as many here have? An issue brought up time and time again is that Imitates have done more training here (and become arguably better jedi) that those that clutch onto that "grandmaster" title. Whats the point of asking people to grow when those on top sit pretty and refuse to do the training expected of those lower in rank?

You raise a valid point here. It cannot all be about training. Some of it needs to be an expectation of every single person walking through the door, regardless of their intention or position. There needs to be a baseline for acceptable behavior. One doesn't walk into a church and start screaming profanities. Why? Because it is widely understood that this is unacceptable behavior in a church. We need to establish our own widely accepted standards and make sure everyone is aware of them. We're currently working on this, as evidenced by this thread.

I also agree that the newest here are often better at living the Doctrine because it is new and exciting. It is top of mind. It hasn't been taken for granted yet and most have not been jaded by some of the negativity that can sprout up from time to time. Sorry to bring up the fiction, but this was actually addressed in The Last Jedi by Yoda. In speaking of students to Luke, he says "we are what they grow beyond." He recognizes that every new generation should be better than the last and surpass them. It is the fate of a Master to feel that they have failed their students, when in reality, it is their students who outgrow them. They should learn from our failures and also build on our progress. I have told both of my Apprentices that I will have failed them if they do not surpass me in their ability to pass on wisdom and knowledge to students of their own.

It is a shame that there are many here in higher ranks or holding offices that do not continue to train and grow, but we need to be careful about focusing too much on this. In time, this Temple will outgrow all of us, and no "Grand Master" of today will ever compare to one in the future. Some focus their efforts on administration, some focus on teaching others, and some just fade away or get lazy. Regardless, let's focus on building up those that would replace us and will do a better job than we have instead of worrying about who holds a title they aren't doing justice to.

Senan wrote:

Arisaig wrote: And about training... what of those that haven't undergone training as many here have? An issue brought up time and time again is that Imitates have done more training here (and become arguably better jedi) that those that clutch onto that "grandmaster" title. Whats the point of asking people to grow when those on top sit pretty and refuse to do the training expected of those lower in rank?

You raise a valid point here. It cannot all be about training. Some of it needs to be an expectation of every single person walking through the door, regardless of their intention or position. There needs to be a baseline for acceptable behavior. One doesn't walk into a church and start screaming profanities. Why? Because it is widely understood that this is unacceptable behavior in a church. We need to establish our own widely accepted standards and make sure everyone is aware of them. We're currently working on this, as evidenced by this thread.

I also agree that the newest here are often better at living the Doctrine because it is new and exciting. It is top of mind. It hasn't been taken for granted yet and most have not been jaded by some of the negativity that can sprout up from time to time. Sorry to bring up the fiction, but this was actually addressed in The Last Jedi by Yoda. In speaking of students to Luke, he says "we are what they grow beyond." He recognizes that every new generation should be better than the last and surpass them. It is the fate of a Master to feel that they have failed their students, when in reality, it is their students who outgrow them. They should learn from our failures and also build on our progress. I have told both of my Apprentices that I will have failed them if they do not surpass me in their ability to pass on wisdom and knowledge to students of their own.

It is a shame that there are many here in higher ranks or holding offices that do not continue to train and grow, but we need to be careful about focusing too much on this. In time, this Temple will outgrow all of us, and no "Grand Master" of today will ever compare to one in the future. Some focus their efforts on administration, some focus on teaching others, and some just fade away or get lazy. Regardless, let's focus on building up those that would replace us and will do a better job than we have instead of worrying about who holds a title they aren't doing justice to.

Yoda: That is the true burden of all masters. We are what they grow beyond.

I do understand that point, well explained. As... unideal (If I can use a fake word there)... as this situation is, again I'm overly focusing on this moment, rather than later.

A suggestion..
There is a contact clergy button for religious matters.
Why don't we put a contact a mediator for disputes or perceived insults.
That way instead of people responding emotionally, they can get someone to look at it without bias.
It will stop things from escalating and calm can replace anger.
This seems better than laying down the law.

Stephen wrote: A suggestion..
There is a contact clergy button for religious matters.
Why don't we put a contact a mediator for disputes or perceived insults.
That way instead of people responding emotionally, they can get someone to look at it without bias.
It will stop things from escalating and calm can replace anger.
This seems better than laying down the law.

TBH, I've started thinking that when you contact the Clergy, you maybe should get a mediator when the situation warrants.

A suggestion..
There is a contact clergy button for religious matters.
Why don't we put a contact a mediator for disputes or perceived insults.
That way instead of people responding emotionally, they can get someone to look at it without bias.
It will stop things from escalating and calm can replace anger.
This seems better than laying down the law.

I've played this game before in the workplace - If people don't get the resolution they were hoping for, they cry that the ombudsman/mediator is on the same side as the brass, or in some other way corrupt or incompetent.

situation is still not resolved, now there are just more irritated parties.

JamesSand wrote:

A suggestion..
There is a contact clergy button for religious matters.
Why don't we put a contact a mediator for disputes or perceived insults.
That way instead of people responding emotionally, they can get someone to look at it without bias.
It will stop things from escalating and calm can replace anger.
This seems better than laying down the law.

I've played this game before in the workplace - If people don't get the resolution they were hoping for, they cry that the ombudsman/mediator is on the same side as the brass, or in some other way corrupt or incompetent.

situation is still not resolved, now there are just more irritated parties.

Agreed. Almost feel like whomever was the mediator would need to be trained in such methods (much akin to an ombudsman), and would have to be one of those special people that can take that kind of bad-guy-on-both-sides stress.

If someone reacts that way to mediation, instead of trying to find a peaceful out come.
Personally, I think they need more help than the temple can give them.

A man who puts himself in the path of danger, deserves to face it alone.
- Qui-Gon Jinn