Profiles - Gender

ren wrote:

It's (typically speaking) very easy to update drop downs to add more options or change them to text box options all together.

In our case we have to go from a 2 bit integer to a string, so it's a pain.

Gender is silly. To many non-english speakers it's a useless attribute all nouns have, not something that gets associated with people. Got rid of it as soon as I realised I could.

You're ignoring the fact that sex and gender are completely different from one another. One is a biological fact. The other is a social construct and personal form of identification. You don't have the right to tell someone else their personal forms of identification are "silly" simply because it doesn't fit with your worldview.

Further, I would argue that a site manager ought to be able to handle changing drop down menus to text boxes or adding additional options to existing drop downs (which you've already done).... That's part of your job description. But even if you can't do that for whatever reason, there was absolutely no reason for you to go and change "gender" to "sex" knowing that the two are completely different constructs and that they work in day to day life differently, even if you don't happen to agree with it. That's not really your choice to make.

Avalonslight wrote:

ren wrote:

It's (typically speaking) very easy to update drop downs to add more options or change them to text box options all together.

In our case we have to go from a 2 bit integer to a string, so it's a pain.

Gender is silly. To many non-english speakers it's a useless attribute all nouns have, not something that gets associated with people. Got rid of it as soon as I realised I could.

You're ignoring the fact that sex and gender are completely different from one another. One is a biological fact. The other is a social construct and personal form of identification. You don't have the right to tell someone else their personal forms of identification are "silly" simply because it doesn't fit with your worldview.

Further, I would argue that a site manager ought to be able to handle changing drop down menus to text boxes or adding additional options to existing drop downs (which you've already done).... That's part of your job description. But even if you can't do that for whatever reason, there was absolutely no reason for you to go and change "gender" to "sex" knowing that the two are completely different constructs and that they work in day to day life differently, even if you don't happen to agree with it. That's not really your choice to make.

I know sex and gender are different. Sex is real, gender is BS. I am well aware of that, hence why I made the change. Your need for "gender" to be there is silly.

Adding additional options turned out to be easy. Changing the variable type is not.

ren wrote: I know sex and gender are different. Sex is real, gender is BS. I am well aware of that, hence why I made the change. Your need for "gender" to be there is silly.

And again. You don't get to make that decision for someone else. That's not a right you have. No one has the right to go to another person and tell them part of their identity is "silly". Gender is part of peoples' identities, part of who they are. No one has the right to tell someone else that that's wrong or silly... Not when it's so integral to who a person is and how they relate to the world.

We don't need to know someone's sex on a website. Know their gender is part of knowing their identity and being respectful to them. A point you seem to keep ignoring.

And if you've been paying attention, almost everyone who's spoken on the matter has said gender is more appropriate than sex for what we use it for on site.

But by all means, do whatever it is you want since that's all that matters to you and there's nothing the rest of us can do on the matter and you've admittedly done so anyway.

Gender is real, if not just because its now recognized in the broader society which we participate and live within.

Personally... I think they are psychological energetic circuits, relating quite distinctly with the spinal alignment, neuromuscular activiation, balance and movement - being that the male tends to a crouched manner ready to spring while the feminine is more a balanced coiled upright arrangement, ready to unwind... all crouched tiger and hidden dragon like
:lol:
But that these only got associated to sex because of the anatomical peculiarities of posture and therefore movement - being its trickier for a male to stand balanced with his package downstairs hanging out front and shoulders larger then hips, plus sitting upright is difficult with the package in the way - while female anatomy with the wider hips and smaller shoulders and balance between larger butt out back and breasts out front provide a more balanced upright posture, additionally allowing upright sitting. Creating these two distinct setups, but setups otherwise not limited to sex, beyond that social norm and anatomical disposition. Just my opinion from reading too much Asian spiritual stuff and being too open minded.
:silly:
The rest of gender then is just cultural I guess, but how people define themselves is important to relating to them.

frankly I'm tired of seeing so much debate for something like this. are five discussion pages in less than an hour. why not post on their training this so intensely. and something else, the person who started this topic is really worried about this subject or simply made for lack of anything better to do? so I ask myself and honestly, we have more important things to do

Okay, this got carried away.

I have not read the 4 PAGES of what I am sure is brilliant debate on this -


I don't believe the question was about Gender in a broad sense, so much as "Can we have a Third option on the drop down list that is not M or F" - Seems like more a technical "site set up capability" question than a "How do you feel about non-binary genders" question.

That was done, so I would think the problem was solved?


But, I'm never one to deprive someone of an opportunity to jam their agendas into any given conversation

MrBruno wrote: frankly I'm tired of seeing so much debate for something like this. are five discussion pages in less than an hour. why not post on their training this so intensely.

Because this is an important matter to many in our Temple.

and something else, the person who started this topic is really worried about this subject or simply made for lack of anything better to do?

Knowing the OP as I do, I don't believe that Edan would start this topic to start trouble, but only out of genuine concern.

so I ask myself and honestly, we have more important things to do

No.
We do not have better things to do than care of our members.
Ever.

The initial suggestion of this thread was to consider adding additional gender options, with even "other" being better than just the traditional binary choices. It wasn't to argue sex vs gender, though the necessity of that argument was born out of asinine comments.

Which.... Is essentially what was done but because "gender is BS" it was changed to sex and neither....

Which. Is. Wrong.

Again you don't get to make that choice for other people.

No.
We do not have better things to do than care of our members.
Ever.

Caring for members is one thing. I'm all for it. Support were support is due.

Self indulgent semantic stance-taking, finger pointing, and inane debate is not so much "caring for members" as the pseudo-social awareness version of jacking it.

Especially on an international forum, where getting distressed about nuances in synonyms in one language looks fairly ridiculous.

it was changed to sex

My passport says "Sex/Sexe"

As a word - if it's good enough for passports, it's good enough for here.

JamesSand wrote: Caring for members is one thing. I'm all for it. Support were support is due.

Self indulgent semantic stance-taking, finger pointing, and inane debate is not so much "caring for members" as the pseudo-social awareness version of jacking it.

Especially on an international forum, where getting distressed about nuances in synonyms in one language looks fairly ridiculous.

The difference between "gender" and "sex" is not a "nuance in synonyms." We have plenty of members on this international forum who might be personally affected by these decisions.

How so?

...because it forces them to choose between their identity and a metric that they don't feel identifies them at all?

No-one's forced to do anything. The option not to answer remains an option.

Gender is a metric that identifies significantly less people than Sex.

ren wrote: Gender is a metric that identifies significantly less people than Sex.

Care to quote a statistic on that, or are we going on your traditional ultra-conservative, "everybody but me is wrong", ostrich-head-in-the-socio-political-sand ramblings here?

steamboat28 wrote:

ren wrote: Gender is a metric that identifies significantly less people than Sex.

Care to quote a statistic on that, or are we going on your traditional ultra-conservative, "everybody but me is wrong", ostrich-head-in-the-socio-political-sand ramblings here?

there is no statistic for that, statistics do not measure things which do not exist. I see you once again show absolute ignorance of other cultures on this topic. You used to be a decent guy, what happened?

Wow this escalated quickly.. what if we take away both options ? We are supposed to be a community that embraces and accepts eachothers differences , but this discussion clearly proves we cannot. Bickering like little children over metrics , its the first time i really feel ashamed of you , really ,...take the options away and talk to eachother about who you are , because ideas are fluid and metrics are not , but if this is so offensive to people maybe they should consider getting a thicker skin or ...be a Jedi and accept people are different , some are metric and some are fluid ...

ren wrote: there is no statistic for that, statistics do not measure things which do not exist. I see you once again show absolute ignorance of other cultures on this topic. You used to be a decent guy, what happened?

Gender exists as a concept. It has for a very long time. It is such an old concept that it has been traditionally subverted by shaman and medicine workers for the whole of recorded history.

Would you, having that knowledge, like to present me with evidence from a sociologist or anthropologist that says otherwise? Because if not, you're talking out of your ass to push your own opinion.


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I'm disappointed my request for the topic to be taken elsewhere (this was just a thread about adding a gender option to the profile) has been ignored.

Edan,

It was taken elsewhere, now everyone is just carrying on the debate in two places :laugh:

If you've got no interest in reading through all the diatribe (I don't blame you)

It was Changed to

Sex: Male, Female, Neither.

Then back to

Gender: Male, Female, Non-Entry.

So, twelve hours of chest puffing and debate...and we're back where we started

Come back in another day, and it may or may not be a different story

steamboat28 wrote:

ren wrote: there is no statistic for that, statistics do not measure things which do not exist. I see you once again show absolute ignorance of other cultures on this topic. You used to be a decent guy, what happened?

Gender exists as a concept. It has for a very long time. It is such an old concept that it has been traditionally subverted by shaman and medicine workers for the whole of recorded history.

Would you, having that knowledge, like to present me with evidence from a sociologist or anthropologist that says otherwise? Because if not, you're talking out of your ass to push your own opinion.


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Ah personal attacks.

First of all "sex" exists all over the world. "gender" does not exist all over the world. You have been told this a dozen times now by myself and other members. It is not about how old "gender" is, but if you must mention age know this: "sex" also existed long before any ideas of anything, let alone "gender" did, around 1.2 billion years ago? I don't think they had shamans 1.2 billion years ago. But you can supply evidence from a sociologist or anthropologist that says otherwise if it makes you happy.
I incidentally recall being told that two-spirits is not the same as gender. You may very well be offending native-americans with your statements.


Secondly. You have witnessed no such things from me.

I do not believe that whatever groups I belong to are better, because don't like what comes with groups and refrain from joiing them. 10 years of totjo, I wrote half the doctrine and you don't wonder why I'm just a member? Are you just having a laugh with this?

You have most certainly not witnessed racism from me as my wife and children are not "my race", and I get along with people from other cultures --just not yours--, unfortunately we're the same race, so that still doesn't count as racism. Better luck next time

You have not witnessed sexism from me as I have a son and daughter, and I don't want them to be discriminated against or turned rotten by feminists, an issue most people here know concerns me greatly.

I'm also not an "ableist". You see my son has a mental illness, another thing I have not kept secret here, and particularly concerned about his rights. What can I say I'm a libertarian. I also remember having to defend people with symptoms I am familiar with here, from you and your bully friends.

I have no idea where the homophobia comment comes from, as I've got good relationships with homosexuals on and off totjo, including a physical one which I have spoken about before, here at totjo.

As to the transphobic comment, I do not see how sex is transphobic. I do not see how giving an option other than "male" and "female" is transphobic.


Now that everything is back as it was, surely you can calm down?