Profiles - Gender

Brick wrote:

ren wrote: Please I beg you don't encourage them, by the end of the week we'll have a "tick if being called a jew offends you" box.

Oh Ren :laugh:

I see you're point, but you don't help yourself haha

Well let me be of help then and beg the council yet again to get rid of the gender and sex boxes or whatever you call them ...

Gender information could prevent miscommunication, but how much of an issue would miscommunication actually be? If someone makes a mistake, assuming it bothers one at all, they can be corrected. Is the average individual going to even view a personal profile in the first instance? Personally I never view people's profiles nor often use Forcebook. Indeed one may not even be able to view a person's profile (I can't view yours Avalon) - I think this can only be done if each are in the respective contact lists.

Akkarin wrote:

Avalonslight wrote: Akkarin, the other option which has been suggested (in the other thread I think) was the addition of the opposing category so that both are available and the user can utilize which they want. Given that profiles are quick snippets of information meant to be accessed easily so that people have a basic understanding of one another in communication, I would still say that if changing the form type of the current option is of too much difficulty, adding a second option entirely would be best because we have historical proof it can be done.

If we're adding boxes under "Basic Information", why not add race/ethnicity/sexuality?

There's space available for people to add whatever they wish, indeed those particular things they are inclined to add are themselves informative of what one considers important "Basic Information". As for what is not mentioned, there is something to be said about being blind to another's qualities - it highlights how unnecessary they are in interpersonal communications.

I don't call people by their race/ethnicity/sexuality. It has nothing to do with what words I use when I talk to or about them. What we do have are male/female pronouns instead of gender neutral ones. I've been taught it's poor English to call an individual "they" (as it's plural), and the male pronoun is the default but as a gamer, being assumed that I'm male kind of rubs my fur the wrong way sometimes. So I try to avoid that if I can for others That's seriously all I use the gender option for. If the information is available in a profile, I like not assuming. Sometimes it's not there for our new members anyways but it's nice if it is.

Could an option be to change the gender section to simply "Preferred Pronoun"?

I personally dont have a preference as far as either "box" goes, whatever the Council decides on this issue i'll probably support, so long as it is the decision of the Council and not one Individual...

Akkarin wrote:

Warning: Spoiler!

Avalonslight wrote:

Akkarin wrote: If we're adding boxes under "Basic Information", why not add race/ethnicity/sexuality?

There's space available for people to add whatever they wish, indeed those particular things they are inclined to add are themselves informative of what one considers important "Basic Information". As for what is not mentioned, there is something to be said about being blind to another's qualities - it highlights how unnecessary they are in interpersonal communications.

Response:

I understand gender is a big issue for some members here. I mean no disrespect by the comparison I'm about to make:

What if "race" is a big deal for me? Let's say my race has played a pivotal role in my identity. Should I get to demand this site to put it up there as an option to select on the profile?

I mean, there is an "about me" free-for-all textbox to write in any information is "must know" for others...

Your race doesn't dictate how people address you (he, she, etc) in normal conversation. Your gender does. This information being readily available on your profile can help prevent early miscommunication with other members.

Also, I stated elsewhere but will repeated again, the average individual isn't going to spend time reading a paragraph when they can see "sex: [x]" just to see if they mention a different gender identification in that section. It stating gender alleviates the possibility of any confusion that sex cannot alleviate due to them being two different constructs.

Gender information could prevent miscommunication, but how much of an issue would miscommunication actually be? If someone makes a mistake, assuming it bothers one at all, they can be corrected. Is the average individual going to even view a personal profile in the first instance? Personally I never view people's profiles nor often use Forcebook. Indeed one may not even be able to view a person's profile (I can't view yours Avalon) - I think this can only be done if each are in the respective contact lists.

No, you can't. I have mine set to "contacts only", but no one in my contact list. I, however, can see yours (yours says gender: male), so the ability to see a person's profile is not solely dependent on contact status.

And some people don't actively view profiles. I do. I can't even remember which thread I've said it in or how far back now, but I do so that when I'm talking to someone new or who I don't know, I know how to be respectful of them. I actively try to avoid causing offense, intentional and unintentional, as much as possible over things like that because those offenses can be prevented so easily.

Unfortunately I have known too many people to be directly impacted by the disregarding of gender in lieu of biological sex. Even if I am a cisgender female, I find the issue as a whole to be very important and worth investing as much effort into as possible. Everyone else's mileage will likely vary.

Kit wrote: I don't call people by their race/ethnicity/sexuality. It has nothing to do with what words I use when I talk to or about them. What we do have are male/female pronouns instead of gender neutral ones. I've been taught it's poor English to call an individual "they" (as it's plural), and the male pronoun is the default but as a gamer, being assumed that I'm male kind of rubs my fur the wrong way sometimes. So I try to avoid that if I can for others That's seriously all I use the gender option for. If the information is available in a profile, I like not assuming. Sometimes it's not there for our new members anyways but it's nice if it is.

Could an option be to change the gender section to simply "Preferred Pronoun"?

Be sure not to miss my post just above yours. You may have been taught not to use the singular "they", but that doesn't mean you can't (I promise not to call the grammar gestapo). There are gender neutral pronouns beyond "they" and "you".

Probably a derail, I just was thinking this...

I was re-reading through this thread... keep in mind that I am (and this may shock and surprise some people) completely, 110% anti, against, not in favor of trigger warnings, safe spaces or any of th other nonsense that has become part of the popular norm.

I belive in being polite to people. And it is not always easy. And none of us will always be able to be at our best. I believe in listening to the concerns and opinions of others. No matter how you feel about them, the idea or opinion.

How may realize that I have never filled out the male female thing on my profile? I didn't skip it because I was trying to make some statement of protest or standing for what I believe in... I just don't care.

I see each person on here as the views, ideas and opinins they express. I would say that most of the time I am completely surprised to find out what somone idetifies with. Not because I guessed wrong, but because I don't care. To me, none of you are what ever lable you or someone else handled you with. I see all of you as individuals. Like a blank sheet of paper that is filled in as we get to know one another. And it is the content of your mind and spirit that writes what is on that paper. Not the lables being thrown around.

Like with other things that seem to pop up from time to time, I just don't get it. And sad to say, I don't think I want to "get it." Not if understanding is going to make me get offended, upset or have to confine myself to a lable. No... not for me thank you

I can't believe on the amount of lack of empathy on this thread. Even plain transphobia. I'm really disappointed that some peple call themselves Jedi and still fail to see why this issue matter so much to some of their brothers and sisters.

I'll try to explain some facts before giving my opinion regarding the main subject.

1 - Sex is the biological definition of your reproductive organs. They can be masculine, feminine or intersexual.

2 - Gender is your role on soceity. How you idendity yourself and chose to show yourself to others. It can be male, female and anything in between or none. (To put in simple terms, it's a little more complicated that this.)

3 - If you identify your gender as the same sex that doctors assigned you when you were born and are comfortable with people assuming that your sex should define your identity, you are a cisgender person. The matter being discussed here probably doesn't concern you and you shouldn't be here making assumptions. You should ask questions, listen and empathize to the people who this matter may concern.

4 - If you do not identify your gender as the same sex you were assigned when you were born, you are a transgender person. These people are REAL and they go through a lot of issues in order to make other people accept who they REALLY are. To make soceity accept that they are not defined by their biological sex. To transgender people, their gender identity is REALLY IMPORTANT. They usually do not choose "not to disclosure" because this option would turn their identity (and struggles) invisible. It's like erasing everything they have fought to be!

5 - You don't have to accept the "idea" of gender roles. But accepting or not makes absolutely no difference. The definition of the word "gender" is different from the word "sex". That's a fact, and nothing you can do will change it. If you choose not to adress a person by their real identities and you just define them by their sexual organs, you are just being plainly disrespectfull.

6 - About the cultural issue. Gender is universal. A lot of cultures accept only the binary spectrum (regarding the sex or not) and many accept A LOT of different genders. They even have special pronouns for each. Assuming that just because some cultures reads gender (identity) as sex (genitals) you must make these the only options is the same as excluding other cultures. I thought that we were trying to be inclusive here, right?


That said, here comes my opinion on the present issue.

- There should be an "GENDER" option on the profile with 3 alternatives: female, male, other.

- It's possible to add more options, but since there are too many non-binary identities, and they are usually too personal, it's always possible to forget something... The "other" option already covers all the non-binary spectrum and if a person reads that on your profile, it will probably tingles one's curiosity enough for he or she automaticaly look into your description to see what are your prefered pronouns.

- It's also possible to leave the gender box for you to fill out with your own gender identity, but it's been said that it's too complicated to change that in the form, so just add the "other" option and it's fine.

- "Non-disclosure" is not a gender option. It's the same than HIDING your identity. If you say to a non binary person that he or she should choose "non-disclosure" if he or she doesn't identify as male of female, you are just saying that this person is not important enough. That he or she should adequate him or herself to YOUR rules, instead of showing empathy and making the rules more inclusive.

- Remember: to a lot of people their gender identity mean a lot. They should be able to show who they are, not to be obligated to enclosure themselves in YOUR standards or to hide themselves.

- Lastly, one of the most important points is that when the TotJO includes the option "other" under gender they are acknowleging that there's more in the world than male/female dichotomy. That people who don't feel they correspond to one of these roles are real, and are welcome in the Order. They include all the trans* spectrum, even if these people choose not to disclosure themselves, they feel embraced.

- That's why, in my opinion, the Temple should not ban the gender box of the profile either. By simply erasing the option, it looks like the Temple doesn't want any trouble and is isenting itself from a very important matter on the lives of a lot of members who already find a lot of misunderstandings during their lives.

- Of course it's unecessary to say that changing "gender" to "sex" is a terrible idea. It's no one's business what I have between my legs. u__u

Sorry if anything sounds strange. English is not my first language, but I tried to write as clear as possible.

Thank you for reading and trying to understand. For me, empathy is the most precious Jedi quality. Please, let's show more empathy towards each other.

May the Force be with you all.

Aino wrote: I can't believe on the amount of lack of empathy on this thread. Even plain transphobia. I'm really disappointed that some peple call themselves Jedi and still fail to see why this issue matter so much to some of their brothers and sisters.

I'll try to explain some facts before giving my opinion regarding the main subject.

1 - Sex is the biological definition of your reproductive organs. They can be masculine, feminine or intersexual.

2 - Gender is your role on soceity. How you idendity yourself and chose to show yourself to others. It can be male, female and anything in between or none. (To put in simple terms, it's a little more complicated that this.)

3 - If you identify your gender as the same sex that doctors assigned you when you were born and are comfortable with people assuming that your sex should define your identity, you are a cisgender person. The matter being discussed here probably doesn't concern you and you shouldn't be here making assumptions. You should ask questions, listen and empathize to the people who this matter may concern.

4 - If you do not identify your gender as the same sex you were assigned when you were born, you are a transgender person. These people are REAL and they go through a lot of issues in order to make other people accept who they REALLY are. To make soceity accept that they are not defined by their biological sex. To transgender people, their gender identity is REALLY IMPORTANT. They usually do not choose "not to disclosure" because this option would turn their identity (and struggles) invisible. It's like erasing everything they have fought to be!

5 - You don't have to accept the "idea" of gender roles. But accepting or not makes absolutely no difference. The definition of the word "gender" is different from the word "sex". That's a fact, and nothing you can do will change it. If you choose not to adress a person by their real identities and you just define them by their sexual organs, you are just being plainly disrespectfull.

6 - About the cultural issue. Gender is universal. A lot of cultures accept only the binary spectrum (regarding the sex or not) and many accept A LOT of different genders. They even have special pronouns for each. Assuming that just because some cultures reads gender (identity) as sex (genitals) you must make these the only options is the same as excluding other cultures. I thought that we were trying to be inclusive here, right?


That said, here comes my opinion on the present issue.

- There should be an "GENDER" option on the profile with 3 alternatives: female, male, other.

- It's possible to add more options, but since there are too many non-binary identities, and they are usually too personal, it's always possible to forget something... The "other" option already covers all the non-binary spectrum and if a person reads that on your profile, it will probably tingles one's curiosity enough for he or she automaticaly look into your description to see what are your prefered pronouns.

- It's also possible to leave the gender box for you to fill out with your own gender identity, but it's been said that it's too complicated to change that in the form, so just add the "other" option and it's fine.

- "Non-disclosure" is not a gender option. It's the same than HIDING your identity. If you say to a non binary person that he or she should choose "non-disclosure" if he or she doesn't identify as male of female, you are just saying that this person is not important enough. That he or she should adequate him or herself to YOUR rules, instead of showing empathy and making the rules more inclusive.

- Remember: to a lot of people their gender identity mean a lot. They should be able to show who they are, not to be obligated to enclosure themselves in YOUR standards or to hide themselves.

- Lastly, one of the most important points is that when the TotJO includes the option "other" under gender they are acknowleging that there's more in the world than male/female dichotomy. That people who don't feel they correspond to one of these roles are real, and are welcome in the Order. They include all the trans* spectrum, even if these people choose not to disclosure themselves, they feel embraced.

- That's why, in my opinion, the Temple should not ban the gender box of the profile either. By simply erasing the option, it looks like the Temple doesn't want any trouble and is isenting itself from a very important matter on the lives of a lot of members who already find a lot of misunderstandings during their lives.

- Of course it's unecessary to say that changing "gender" to "sex" is a terrible idea. It's no one's business what I have between my legs. u__u

Sorry if anything sounds strange. English is not my first language, but I tried to write as clear as possible.

Thank you for reading and trying to understand. For me, empathy is the most precious Jedi quality. Please, let's show more empathy towards each other.

May the Force be with you all.

None of my replies were un- emphatic, the suggestion that you make that the box should not be removed because Totjo does not want to adress the issue is in my opinion not valid , especially as Jedi , gender and sex are not relevant for the function and living as a Jedi , if anything it seems to be a breaking point , something we argue about. The Jedi religion or philosophy if you prefer that has no opinion on how you live you life between the sheets , nor does it meddlle in you choice of clothes or that you wish to be called a woman or a man. The only logical sollution is to remove the sex and gender box and elaborate as much as you want about your gender in the About Me box

If you see my disagreeing as a sign of not emphatising with you i in advance warn you that i put such aside me as fast as you type it , emphathy is a Jedi trade and one of the more important ones , but we dont have to agree on everything here , thats what is so nice about being a Jedi , you have to do and say the right thing , but even the right thing is a fluid concept

May the Force be with you aswell Jedi