Knight hosted IP discussion in Temple Chat - Friday, February 19th at 2200 UTC

In the rich tradition of Edan and Reliah, I will be hosting an IP Discussion in our chat room at 2200 UTC on February 19th of 2016.

Come with questions and we will explore the material together. Come ready to work.

Click here for your local time. I hope to see all you Novices there!

Bumpety-ump-bump-bump!

I'll definitely be there!

will try and make it Cabur thank you:)

Thr transcript for last wekk. Thank you to all in attendance!

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(17:06:08) Cabur_Senaar: Alright, let's just jump in.
(17:06:20) Cabur_Senaar: Why isn't it the Game of Grey and Grey?
(17:06:31) Cabur_Senaar: Anybody want to take a shot at that?
(17:06:39) Temple Bot: Kit has joined the chat.
(17:06:43) Gwinn: I'd say because we identify things by their differences.
(17:06:46) Aqua: Because it is the game of Black and White?
(17:06:50) Temple Bot: Freja_Saol-Wasse has joined the chat.
(17:07:11) Cabur_Senaar: Go on, Gwinn.
(17:07:16) Gwinn: Hey Kit and Freja
(17:07:21) Kit: o/
(17:07:23) Cabur_Senaar: Hi.
(17:07:34) Cabur_Senaar: Hi, Kit.
(17:07:40) Freja_Saol-Wasse: HI
(17:07:40) Kit: Hi Cabur
(17:07:43) Aqua: Hello Kit, Freja
(17:07:45) Gwinn: Well, if it was the Game of Grey and Grey, there wouldn't be much of a game at all. Everything would one big grey.
(17:07:47) Temple Bot: Ryder has joined the chat.
(17:07:48) Kit: Hi Aqua
(17:07:53) Ryder: Hey guys.
(17:07:55) Kit: Sorry didn't want to interrupt just came to watch
(17:08:01) Aqua: Ehm.. if one would see only gray, it would be a game too?
(17:08:04) Cabur_Senaar: WHat is suggested if everything is grey?
(17:08:13) Temple Bot: Rosalyn_J has joined the chat.
(17:08:19) Ryder: Is this an IP discussion?
(17:08:28) Cabur_Senaar: Yes.
(17:08:31) Freja_Saol-Wasse: To understand peace, love, etc. you have to have it's equal opposite...sure there are numerous shades of grey, but to allow for balance you must also have the extremes
(17:09:13) Cabur_Senaar: Okay. True enough. But set aside duality for a moment.
(17:09:30) Cabur_Senaar: Let's stick with Gwinn's idea of identification.
(17:09:50) Cabur_Senaar: We identify things by their differences not just from their opposites.
(17:10:17) Freja_Saol-Wasse: without the extremes, though, how can we weigh where something in the grey spectrum falls?
(17:11:08) Cabur_Senaar: Perhaps we cannot, but not everything has an opposite number, as such. You, for instance.
(17:11:08) Temple Bot: J_Roz has joined the chat.
(17:11:26) Freja_Saol-Wasse: I guess in another way how can we identify something, if we have no scale to judge it against?
(17:11:33) Rosalyn_J: Also live would be rather boring lol
(17:11:55) Cabur_Senaar: Scale is extremely valuable.
(17:11:59) Gwinn: Well Freja, I'd have to say we'd define a new scale based on the greys we had.
(17:12:03) Edan: I like shades of colour rather than shades if grey
(17:12:06) Aqua: Mm.. If one would not be able to indentificate, if one would not see difference, one would play a game of single cards in a single deck? It would be a game of playing against yourself. If one does not know one can do nothing, so one would speculate that he knows? Our gray would be speculation?
(17:12:37) Cabur_Senaar: So, if it all grey, there is only one, undifferentiated mass?
(17:12:51) Senan: Perhaps everything is grey, but humans have a need to classify things within this spectrum between "black" and "white"? Is it just our perception of things?
(17:13:14) Cabur_Senaar: Tell me about that need.
(17:13:17) Aqua: you would not know that Cabur you are not aware of it! IF you only see gray.. I guess
(17:14:14) Senan: To be "me", I have a need to know what is not "me".
(17:14:27) Cabur_Senaar: True enough.
(17:14:38) Cabur_Senaar: Let's unpack your last staement a bit, though.
(17:15:08) Cabur_Senaar: perhaps everything is grey - Could we say this is a stand-n for "everything is one/"
(17:15:43) Senan: Yes, we could.
(17:15:51) Cabur_Senaar: Fair enough.
(17:16:05) Cabur_Senaar: And I'm sure many of us would agree with that premise.
(17:16:13) Gwinn: Yes
(17:16:23) Aqua: I am not sure
(17:16:23) Cabur_Senaar: ANybody want to argue that one?
(17:16:30) Ryder: I would look at it as if everything is connected, but that there are individual needs to be different.
(17:16:45) Cabur_Senaar: Okay.
(17:16:53) Cabur_Senaar: That's close enough to consensus.
(17:17:13) Aqua: How could one say everything is the same, based on seeing only one 'gray'?
(17:17:36) Cabur_Senaar: If there is only one gray, there is only one thing to see.
(17:17:47) One_Creed: As our body is one complete thing, yet made up of many parts each with their own function. Is maybe how the whole Universe is too maybe
(17:17:59) Aqua: Does that mean all are part of the same? If we only see one light?
(17:18:25) Cabur_Senaar: Let us, for the sake of arguement, say that all things are one, or at least connected. Watts certainly stests to this.
(17:18:38) Cabur_Senaar: atests to this, rather.
(17:18:49) Cabur_Senaar: WHy is this problematic for us?
(17:19:14) Ryder: We don't want some things to have impact on us.
(17:19:39) Freja_Saol-Wasse: because even just grey is deeper than that...
(17:19:41) Cabur_Senaar: Like what?
(17:19:54) Cabur_Senaar: Explain, please.
(17:20:24) Freja_Saol-Wasse: even grey is in intricate mixture of black and white and various amounts of each
(17:20:28) Ryder: Like, a war in another country, or a sun exploding in a far off solar system.
(17:20:37) Senan: It means I have to take responsibility for being a part of things that are unpleasant to me. If we are all one, I am every terrorist or criminal.
(17:21:35) Cabur_Senaar: Interesting. Go on.
(17:22:23) Cabur_Senaar: By the way, I'm enjoying your answers. I was thinking of something totally different.
(17:22:36) One_Creed: Good point Senan, makes me see why I would always do my best to make an online trol in gaming see why others dislike a troll instead of just being as bad as everyone else to them.
(17:22:39) Kit: I like that thought Senan. Something I've not thought about
(17:22:59) One_Creed: waves franticly
(17:23:05) One_Creed: Hello Kit
(17:23:22) Kit: HI Creed!!
(17:23:29) Senan: I think of myself a certain way and I don't want to believe I am like people who hurt others. I perceive myself as an individual and when that separateness is removed, I have to accept that I am capable of all the same behaviors.
(17:23:59) One_Creed: Indeed Senan, yet choice sets us apart.
(17:24:05) Ryder: Maybe in a more simplified view, while we are individuals, every movement causes a ripple affect through reality.
(17:24:21) Cabur_Senaar: Are you choices capable of changing your nature?
(17:25:00) Gwinn: That's a good question.
(17:25:17) One_Creed: Indeed Cabur I beleive so because my choice to help or hinder another will in time become habit, depending on whiich I choose to be more like daily.
(17:25:36) Senan: That's the tough part about Watts for me. He asserts that my "nature" is just part of the whole. There is no "my", just nature. At least how I try to understand him.
(17:25:56) Cabur_Senaar: Are you better than the people Senan is describing.
(17:26:09) Cabur_Senaar: Yes, Senan, that is what he is saying.
(17:26:27) One_Creed: Im just me, better or worse than none.
(17:26:29) Gwinn: I used to be angry all the time. Since I've been around here, and been reading, I am a a lot different, though sometimes I can feel that other part try to come out. But then again, if we are setting aside duality, is there really a "better"?
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(17:27:25) Cabur_Senaar: Another question, is the change you expereince any less true to your nature than what you were like before?
(17:28:05) Gwinn: I'm not sure how to define my nature. Perhaps that's part of the problem.
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(17:28:29) Cabur_Senaar: That seems to be true, yes.
(17:28:37) Alexandre_Orion: well ... what is natural ?
(17:28:41) Rosalyn_J: When we "define" aren't we putting a box around it?
(17:28:55) Alexandre_Orion: what behaviours are natural in the animal kingdom ?
(17:29:34) Senan: A new me can only be compared to an old me, which is always compared to everyone else around me including nature.
(17:30:09) Senan: My nature is always defined in comparison to something else.
(17:30:15) Gwinn: I guess it depends what animal you are examining Alexandre
(17:30:18) Rosalyn_J: I would contend that there is no such thing as nature in that sense
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(17:30:24) Alexandre_Orion: but Senan, there too, you've made a separation between "me" and "nature"
(17:30:40) Rosalyn_J: there are defined norms associated with a group
(17:30:53) Alexandre_Orion: and comparing is something quite natural for beings with a prefrontal cortex
(17:31:32) Alexandre_Orion: true, Gwinn, we can stick to higher vertebrates for all intents and purposes
(17:31:52) Senan: I try to understand that there is no separation, but my experience of life and what I have been taught would say otherwise.
(17:31:58) Kit: Eating and breeding are the only things I can think of that's true for all
(17:32:13) Alexandre_Orion: what about the four "f" ?
(17:32:15) J_Roz: Sleeping is important too....
(17:32:29) Alexandre_Orion: feeding, fleeing, fighting and f.... reproduction
(17:32:44) Ryder: I think we're all connected, but not like we all have the same body.
(17:33:10) Cabur_Senaar: Fair enough.
(17:33:11) Ryder: Maybe on a much larger scale, like the ecosystem, we do.
(17:33:24) Alexandre_Orion: let's not take the whole we're connected and "oneness" thing too far -- or we'll go all bizarre
(17:33:24) Cabur_Senaar: Or, on a small enough level.
(17:33:37) Kit: But if we really want to get into things, there are animals that don't bother to flee because there's nothing in their natural environment that really can harm them...or they're sloths
(17:33:40) Cabur_Senaar: Yes, Maitre, my point entirely.
(17:33:49) Alexandre_Orion:
(17:34:01) Cabur_Senaar: So, we have this Game of Black and WHite.
(17:34:04) One_Creed: Animals know our emotions and feelings, which is what normally their first reaction to us will be based on. That to me show a conection of comunication animals know better than us, naturally.
(17:34:17) Alexandre_Orion: when we get all egotistical and want to hurt others
(17:34:18) Cabur_Senaar: Why is it a game?
(17:35:07) Ryder: Our thoughts and emotions might be intermingled sometimes, but it doesn't mean we share the same nature.
(17:35:09) Kit: Because you can play with perception to change the rules
(17:35:16) Senan: Because we play it even though we don't need to?
(17:35:17) Alexandre_Orion: it is not usually too far away from the basic instincts .. or the scenarios that our complex brains (that can imagine stuff) have made up to satisfy those basic behaviours
(17:35:27) Cabur_Senaar: Don't we need to?
(17:35:37) Alexandre_Orion: actually, it does indicate that, Ryder
(17:35:49) Alexandre_Orion: and yes, we do need to
(17:36:15) Kit: Reminds me of Ender's Game and his change of perception. "The enemy's gate is down!"
(17:36:16) Cabur_Senaar: Okay, Maitre says we need to.
(17:36:26) Cabur_Senaar: So does Watts.
(17:36:28) Cabur_Senaar: Why?
(17:37:01) Alexandre_Orion: because we are alive ... this is an aspect of it
(17:37:55) Alexandre_Orion: and we'll play as long as we can stay in the game -- knowing/remembering that it is game or not
(17:37:56) Cabur_Senaar: Why do we need to play the game, Novices?
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(17:38:53) Ryder: Because if we don't, we'll doom ourselves and our entire planet because of our stupidity.
(17:39:16) Rosalyn_J: we are doing that already in some places
(17:39:24) Rosalyn_J: playing the game at full tilt
(17:39:35) WSBainbridge: Is there only one game, or are several being played at once?
(17:39:39) Cabur_Senaar: Seriously, Ryder. WHy is the game necessary?
(17:39:48) Ryder: For our survival.
(17:40:05) Cabur_Senaar: You would die?
(17:40:21) Gwinn: Well I think Watts implies that we exist TO play the game.
(17:40:33) Cabur_Senaar: Go on, Gwinn.
(17:40:35) Gwinn: Just being alive, you're playing.
(17:41:00) Gwinn: Our senses and consciousness are all part of it
(17:41:05) Freja_Saol-Wasse: we must play so as to create balance and keep the infinite wheel of life turning...if all the good people stopped, or vice versa...if it all became black or white, chaos would rule and life as we know it would cease to exist
(17:41:22) Ryder: If I threw a pop can out the window of a car, I wouldn't burst into flame. Rather, it's a movement of an entire species that, because of their "cleverness" thinks they don't have to participate in the game and we are slowly dooming ourselves.
(17:42:02) Cabur_Senaar: You are acting as if you could stop playing.
(17:42:32) Ryder: Sure I could. It would cause a ripple affect and impact everything, though.
(17:42:54) Cabur_Senaar: How would one stop playing?
(17:43:27) Ryder: By not having any care for the environment, not being mindful, only thinking of themselves.
(17:43:34) Freja_Saol-Wasse: If roots stop taking on water, the tree eventually will die...
(17:43:46) Rosalyn_J: you are still playing anyway
(17:43:54) Cabur_Senaar: Ah, but that's not what the game is.
(17:44:30) Cabur_Senaar: Senan, you still around?
(17:44:38) Senan: yes
(17:44:57) Cabur_Senaar: Good. I'll need you in a moment.
(17:45:16) Freja_Saol-Wasse: why not...if we stop playing, stop caring, being, just throw in the towel there is no game left...it's over...
(17:45:22) Cabur_Senaar: So, we have this universe that Watts contests is one thing.
(17:45:27) Senan: of course
(17:45:29) Cabur_Senaar: Caring has nothing to do with the game.
(17:45:38) Rosalyn_J: Just because you don't care doesnt mean you are not playing
(17:45:41) Cabur_Senaar: Because you are still playing by not caring.
(17:45:44) Rosalyn_J: are not apart of the game
(17:46:00) Cabur_Senaar: But we have this mind.
(17:46:12) Rosalyn_J: you are making a conscious decision to play the game that way
(17:46:16) Ryder: So you're saying there is duality... people who care and people do don't.
(17:46:26) Ryder: *who
(17:46:31) Cabur_Senaar: This mind understands the universe by way of disctinctions, as Gwinn pointed out.
(17:46:33) One_Creed: Yin - Yang
(17:46:54) Cabur_Senaar: Ah, but the Game is not about reality directly.
(17:47:02) Cabur_Senaar: The game is about this human mind.
(17:47:09) Temple Bot: Lykeios has joined the chat.
(17:47:14) Alexandre_Orion: Yin ~ Yang are not "distinctions"
(17:47:21) Lykeios: wow! lots of people in chat! hello all
(17:47:46) Cabur_Senaar: I'll break it down for you.
(17:47:47) Alexandre_Orion: Hi, Adam ... this is a discussion of the IP matters
(17:48:00) Lykeios: got it
(17:48:02) Lykeios: thank you
(17:48:04) Senan: So the game is in our heads
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(17:48:31) Cabur_Senaar: Hard-wired, inescapable.
(17:48:41) Cabur_Senaar: But we call it a game for a reason.
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(17:49:29) Cabur_Senaar: The Game of Black and White is a game of talking as if.
(17:49:50) Cabur_Senaar: We think using language. language is reductive and divisive.
(17:50:25) Cabur_Senaar: Yet we understand that to break the universe into distinct parts (Mindwalk, anyone?) doesn't really capture the truth.
(17:50:58) Cabur_Senaar: So we must remind ourselves that the way we talk is just a way of talking.
(17:51:12) Alexandre_Orion:
(17:51:19) Cabur_Senaar: But we cannot pretend that the way we talk reflects reality.
(17:51:39) Gwinn: Actually, I was thinking of asking to discuss Mindwalk Cabur haha
(17:51:40) Cabur_Senaar: But we also cannot pretend that we can talk or think in a way that captures reality entirely.
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(17:51:58) Cabur_Senaar: Solid, Gwinn. You have nine minutes.
(17:52:03) Cabur_Senaar: Mindwalk us.
(17:52:09) Gwinn: Oh goodness
(17:52:11) Gwinn: Haha
(17:52:25) Senan: the Tao that can be named is not the Tao?
(17:52:27) steamboat28: (there are so many people here)
(17:52:42) Cabur_Senaar: Absolutely, but that does not mean we stop talking about the Tao.
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(17:52:47) Ryder: I still don't understand exactly what the game is...
(17:53:03) Cabur_Senaar: May I?
(17:53:27) Gwinn: Go ahead
(17:53:30) Phortis_Nespin: Hey All
(17:53:44) Phortis_Nespin: SHHH
(17:53:44) robdegrey: I have to head to a meeting, but thanks for hosting and chatting. Interesting stuff. My field (psychology) is realizing more and more that a systems perspective is more useful than trying to examine isolated components. Systems theory is enriching our work in exciting new ways. Anyway, thanks again.
(17:53:53) Cabur_Senaar: Watts suggests a Universe that is One thing, intimately connected, emerging from a single principle.
(17:54:29) Cabur_Senaar: Each of us is an extension of that principle. But everything is.
(17:54:34) Alexandre_Orion: sort of Spinoza, but better
(17:54:40) Cabur_Senaar: But we also have this mind.
(17:54:57) WSBainbridge: I see the wisdom of: "Do not seek to leave the world while you are still in it." But would the Path of Transcendence motivate physical travel to the stars, not merely escape from reality?
(17:54:59) Cabur_Senaar: We think via borders, distinctions, etc.
(17:55:21) Cabur_Senaar: One sec.
(17:55:36) Cabur_Senaar: The distinctions are not simply duality, but include it.
(17:56:11) Ryder: So the game as a race to separate ourselves from our human distinctions before we doom ourselves?
(17:56:16) Cabur_Senaar: That said, there is a disconnect between the reality we allude to and the way we form our thoughts.
(17:56:41) Cabur_Senaar: No. There is no competition. No winners or losers, as such.
(17:56:51) Cabur_Senaar: Well, sorta'.
(17:56:55) steamboat28: Or, rather,
(17:57:09) Cabur_Senaar: The way you win is that you understand that it is a game.
(17:57:17) steamboat28: ^ that.
(17:57:41) Cabur_Senaar: You realize that we have a way that we think and communicate that does not contain the truth of our reality.
(17:57:46) Cabur_Senaar: No way around it.
(17:57:52) Cabur_Senaar: The way we think is reductive.
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(17:58:09) Akkarin: Evening
(17:58:11) Ryder: Of course. Like, we think: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
(17:58:19) Alexandre_Orion: (whispers) ... looks like steam's feathers are getting ruffled
(17:58:28) Alexandre_Orion: Hi, M
(17:58:40) Cabur_Senaar: So, we just understand that we are drawing lines and such so tha twe can communicate, but that it is an imperfect reflection of reality.
(17:58:44) Ryder: We can't comprehend eternity, because we think of a straight line from point A to point B.
(17:59:05) Senan: So we can't quit playing as long as we have a mind that thinks, but we can play it better if we understand we're in the game.
(17:59:10) Cabur_Senaar: Yes, and we need to understand that we drew that line.
(17:59:27) Cabur_Senaar: We can prevent ourselves from confusing ourselves overmuch.
(17:59:54) Cabur_Senaar: Because if I think the way I think and speak is an accurate reflection of reality, I'm in trouble.
(18:00:57) Cabur_Senaar: I can confuse myself by confusing the map with the territory.
(18:01:44) Cabur_Senaar: It's a game because I understand that I am playing at reflecting reality.
(18:01:47) Senan: It would seem that physicists trying to break apart the universe down to it's smallest pieces could be falling into that trap
(18:01:58) Cabur_Senaar: It stops being a game when I think I have it figured out.
(18:02:06) Cabur_Senaar: But you play regardless.
(18:02:48) Cabur_Senaar: Is the Universe grey?
(18:03:00) Ryder: Not exactly.
(18:03:30) Lykeios: the universe tastes like raspberries...that's all I know
(18:03:38) Gwinn: I guess that's part of the game. With these senses, we can't tell for sure.
(18:03:46) Cabur_Senaar: Watts would argue, more or less, that it is. But there is no way to talk about that.
(18:04:00) steamboat28: (Watts argues a terrible lot.)
(18:04:10) Cabur_Senaar: No arguement there.
(18:04:24) Freja_Saol-Wasse: It is, and it is every other color or lack there of.
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(18:04:53) Cabur_Senaar: Remember, Freja, even black and white is just a way of talking about it.
(18:05:10) Cabur_Senaar: To talk about color at all is just a way of talking about it.
(18:05:36) Cabur_Senaar: We understand that it doesn't cover everything, but it gives us a way to talk about infinity.
(18:05:47) Cabur_Senaar: See?
(18:06:01) Cabur_Senaar: Anyway, it has been an hour. I must run out.
(18:06:04) Ryder: I guess we need metaphors of things we can easily understand to help explain things that just ARE.
(18:06:09) Gwinn: Thank you Cabur!
(18:06:22) Ryder: Thanks!
(18:06:26) J_Roz: Thank you Cabur. May the Force be With you.
(18:06:27) Cabur_Senaar: Please give all of this thought. Please write to me tomorrow with your thoughts.
(18:06:37) Cabur_Senaar: Argue like crazy if you think it will help.
(18:06:50) Cabur_Senaar: Please take the best of care, Jedi.
(18:06:52) Lykeios: bye for now Cabur
(18:06:53) Freja_Saol-Wasse: thank you for giving us "food for thought"
(18:07:14) steamboat28: @Ryder, yes. It helps a great deal. As does our categorical nature as humans. Which is why we divide things so, even if we don't realize it.