A question of The Force.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Uzima Moto wrote: Which makes me kind of sad for Kyrin.. skepticism is good in moderation. However, she's outright dismissive.. and belligerently so.. but her approach, rebuttal, and general presumption of the intellectual high ground makes me think she's done more ego building than self-mastery.. but, like a mule at a millstone. When she finally stops and look at herself she'll see just how far she's come..

Do not feel sad for me. Skepticism only works not in moderation but when applied universally. Dismission is a hallmark of skepticism. Show me something impressive based on evidence and I will pay attention. Fail to do this and i will dismiss you. You say well you dont know how this works... nice assertion... so either prove a process in which it does work or GTFO. Cuz claims need foundation or they are baseless

Using the wrong tool for a job is never a good idea. It explains why there is no scientific evidence. The Force is understood by many (most?) Jedi to be experienced through the mind/body complex which creates our perception of awareness, perhaps even being a state of perception itself, and so as something which seemingly cannot be measured by other means we just have to wait for science to catch up. Absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absence. So, as has been explained many times to you at this Temple, that it lacks any scientific evidence is not a valid or relevant criticism in this case. This is not an excuse, but rather an invitation to develop the tools and techniques to further the scientific field. Just because you don't experience something does not mean others don't. In the interests of speeding up the mouse wheel that is this old conversation you seem to like to have; in the past from this point you usually go to classifying it as hallucination or delusion and querying the utility of such a thing in practical reality and calling it a waste of time. And in the past my answer was always that is what Jediism is to many, developing tools and techniques specifically so they do provide advantage and utility. You usually drop it at that point, but I thought I'd save a few pages of the same old stuff by skipping to there to see if you have any new replies or perspectives that might actually be relevant to what others are saying?

Adder wrote: ... as something which seemingly cannot be measured by other means we just have to wait for science to catch up. Absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absence. So, as has been explained many times to you at this Temple, that it lacks any scientific evidence is not a valid or relevant criticism in this case. This is not an excuse, but rather an invitation to develop the tools and techniques to further the scientific field.

Right, and what do we do in the meantime, then? Just speculate about it and believe blindly what ever wild ideas we can make up about it? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but it is absence of a justification to believe. Of course we can believe anyway, but it is then not the skeptic's fault if they point out that the belief is unfounded and/or unreasonable.
But of course it is worse than that, because we do have evidence of absence. You see, the absence of evidence is only neutral if the statement proposed does not imply evidence within the observable range. If the thing claimed is to have any power sufficient to generate evidene of its presence within any range of observation we can investigate, then the absence of any trace of that power is extremely strong disconfirmation of the claimed thing's presence. It's like with the soul or the untapped power of the mind more recently. If it is out there, it matters almost as little as not at all, and if it actually is to have any kind of noteworthy impact, then we would have detected it by now.

Just because you don't experience something does not mean others don't.

You are right, it doesn't. What would, though? For that matter, what sort of confirmation would it take to say that others do experience the claimed thing? If someone experiences a blimp in the sky, I can stand beside them and look the same direction. Maybe I'd even be content with reviewing a photo they make of it. That wouldn't confirm that they are seeing it, but at least I could have some kind of reasonable expectation that they might, assuming some commonalities between us. If they are blind, of course, then the chances of them seeing the blimp are rather slim, even if I can confirm its presence to within as much as I trust my own senses. If I am blind and they can see, then my inability to spot the blimp is of course no proof that they cannot. Would I however have any reason to believe that they can? Well, sure, if others have confirmed the fortitude of their eyesight and if they have been honest about such trivial things with me in the past, maybe I do. So what happens if both of us are blind, and they claim to be experiencing a blimp in the sky? Just because I cannot experience doesn't mean that they cannot. That they are blind also doesn't, they say, for it is a spiritual blimp, one that signals them personally about its location. What makes it reasonable for me to believe that they are experiencing the blimp? I don't want to call them a liar. Maybe they are actually having some experience, I wouldn't know. But they are claiming that there is a blimp there and they have no means of demonstrating that what they are experiencing is it, nor a way to transfer their experience to me like the seeing friend did with the photo. I don't have to (though I may well) doubt their sincerity, but I have every reason to doubt their correctness, and it is not the skeptic's fault that the claim is so spurious.

Also - please remember that this is in the Abrahamic faith section. As discussions happens often in many places here - it is not our practice here to tell others to Shut the anything up and it is against our rules ...

https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/47-help/679-termsofuseandrules#RulesOffensiveLanguage
——TotJO is a place for spiritual enlightenment, self discovery and discussion of many varied and wide ranging topics. Here at TotJO we debate arguments not personalities and ideas instead of people.
It demonstrates negative traits in an individual namely disrespect for fellow users and lack of control of oneself. 'Heat of the moment' is not a viable excuse, for as Jedi one must possess more control.

So, please think about what you have typed before sending. Show your respect and consideration for your fellow Temple members by simply maintaining the self-restraint to not swear. As it is much easier to control this behaviour when typing than it is in verbal conversation, there really is no acceptable excuse.

Post what you think is acceptable for an 8 year old to read (be it your own child or another) as this is in fact a family, and public, forum after all. If in doubt, leave it out.

Please note also that swearing is not the only way to offend. One can be just as demeaning and derogatory without resorting to swear words. These cases are as equally inappropriate and are covered under the same regulation on the forum.

Please
And
Thanks you

Gisteron wrote:

Adder wrote: ... as something which seemingly cannot be measured by other means we just have to wait for science to catch up. Absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absence. So, as has been explained many times to you at this Temple, that it lacks any scientific evidence is not a valid or relevant criticism in this case. This is not an excuse, but rather an invitation to develop the tools and techniques to further the scientific field.

Right, and what do we do in the meantime, then? Just speculate about it and believe blindly what ever wild ideas we can make up about it? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but it is absence of a justification to believe. Of course we can believe anyway, but it is then not the skeptic's fault if they point out that the belief is unfounded and/or unreasonable.
But of course it is worse than that, because we do have evidence of absence. You see, the absence of evidence is only neutral if the statement proposed does not imply evidence within the observable range. If the thing claimed is to have any power sufficient to generate evidene of its presence within any range of observation we can investigate, then the absence of any trace of that power is extremely strong disconfirmation of the claimed thing's presence. It's like with the soul or the untapped power of the mind more recently. If it is out there, it matters almost as little as not at all, and if it actually is to have any kind of noteworthy impact, then we would have detected it by now..

Incorrect, the study of the mind is in dire need of tools to bridge subjective knowledge into objective knowledge and so in the meantime we wok with what we can, albeit mostly mental it seemingly has immense power. You seem not to have understood my first 3 sentences, and so missed my point entirely. The toys called scientific instrumentation dont yet touch the one we each are. Simply put, its a different field of study.

You are right, Adder, I do not understand what you are saying. We seem to agree that there is no evidence for the thing claimed. I think that makes it unreasonable to believe it. Are you saying that it is unreasonable to ask for any? Because that's what this sounds like. It sounds like you are saying that there is this category of claims about how the natural world works that should - at least for the time being - be excempt from critical analysis or skeptical inquiry. I have not the silghtest idea why anyone would say such a thing but it keeps happening, and for some obscure reason, only for claims that would fail any such scrutiny.

Gisteron wrote: You are right, Adder, I do not understand what you are saying. We seem to agree that there is no evidence for the thing claimed. I think that makes it unreasonable to believe it. Are you saying that it is unreasonable to ask for any? Because that's what this sounds like. It sounds like you are saying that there is this category of claims about how the natural world works that should - at least for the time being - be excempt from critical analysis or skeptical inquiry. I have not the silghtest idea why anyone would say such a thing but it keeps happening, and for some obscure reason, only for claims that would fail any such scrutiny.

Nobody I know is saying that. What I usually hear is people not wanting to examine the proof there is and find ways to expand our working knowledge of it. There are plenty of people who have experienced obe's, clairvoyance, precognition, and other "psychic" phenomena. Enough that it's unconscionable to me that the broader "scientific community" avoids it all together.. What I hear is that if we can't detect these phenomena through natural methods, then it doesn't exist.. but that's like trying to catch air in a net..

I've had personal experiences with telekinesis. I did a simple experiment.. but besides having things that could pick up the effects of my aura on my body. The main point of the experiment was to see the minds ability to control and project these effects..

Adder wrote: Using the wrong tool for a job is never a good idea. It explains why there is no scientific evidence. The Force is understood by many (most?) Jedi to be experienced through the mind/body complex which creates our perception of awareness, perhaps even being a state of perception itself, and so as something which seemingly cannot be measured by other means we just have to wait for science to catch up.

What exactly is this mind/body complex you are speaking of? Can you define that and if so, can you show that definition is viable? How exactly does it create our perception of awareness? How is it alone, used to “measure” this proposition of The Force you put forward and what data can be gleaned from this measurement?

You say science does not have the tools to explore this and then you proceed to define a tool that can be used to explore this concept. So which is it? Is there a tool or not?

Adder wrote: Absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absence. So, as has been explained many times to you at this Temple, that it lacks any scientific evidence is not a valid or relevant criticism in this case.

Absence of evidence also does not mean we just get to make up whatever mumbo jumbo we want to make up and claim it as truth and then demand that tools need to be created in order to prove this mumbo jumbo. This has been explained to you just as many times at this temple. In fact your whole process is backwards. You don’t get to make a conclusion and then build a tool to show the conclusion. This is called confirmation bias. So throwing out your logical fallacy does make my criticism relevant.

Adder wrote: This is not an excuse, but rather an invitation to develop the tools and techniques to further the scientific field.

Actually this is the very definition of an excuse. You make a conclusion and then invite me to create a tool to confirm your conclusion??!! Why would I or anyone else ever conceivably do this? It does not matter if it’s scientifically relevant or not. It’s like coming to me and telling me the earth is hollow. And when I question that conclusion you tell me it’s simple, all I have to do is make a tool to prove that! Well I’m sorry but the burden of proof is not on me, it’s on you. You have to show me it’s hollow, not the other way around.

Adder wrote: Just because you don't experience something does not mean others don't. In the interests of speeding up the mouse wheel that is this old conversation you seem to like to have; in the past from this point you usually go to classifying it as hallucination or delusion and querying the utility of such a thing in practical reality and calling it a waste of time. And in the past my answer was always that is what Jediism is to many, developing tools and techniques specifically so they do provide advantage and utility. You usually drop it at that point, but I thought I'd save a few pages of the same old stuff by skipping to there to see if you have any new replies or perspectives that might actually be relevant to what others are saying?

I’m so appreciative adder, that you have taken the time to speed this up for me. My god what a magnanimous person you are for doing this! So appreciative… really I am. You are right of course, some experience things others do not. But beyond that, you can say nothing. Just because some experience things others do not does not prove they are real and if you can’t show those experiences to others in a coherent manner then you can’t even come to any conclusions about them. This means if you can’t show a reproducible phenomena given a specific set of conditions or even a reproducible effect of that phenomena then you really have only a question, not a conclusion. And to take that question and derive a conclusion is breakdown in logic and critical thinking.


Now if you come to me and say, I experienced something and I don’t know what it was but I would like to discuss it, then we can have a conversation. This is having an open mind. But if you come to me and you say I experienced something and it was definitely an energy source that creates and connects all life but can’t be found on the electromagnetic scale or reproduce any consistent effects but I just believe it can’t be anything other than this thing I shall call the Force, well then you have a closed mind and there is nothing intellectually for us to discuss.

This is where the lines are crossed over in this Topic. This Topic is in a Faith - Abarhamic Studies Section not a Debate or discussion section for Scientific Studies or Beliefs. Here at TOTJO, NO ONE is to tromp on anyone's Beliefs by some of the canter here. If you wish to discuss ones Scientific understandings or Thoughts take it out of this forum Topic. Each individual here has the rights to believe as they do, if it is a Faith based, so be it and NO ONE is to get out of line in that. Stick to the Section for which this Topic was brought into the Forum. Anything outside of a Topic's ideals is disrespectful, destruction of ones personal faith, engaging in attacking ones own beliefs, that within the Temples Forums is unacceptable by any means.

If you are not a Follower of a Faith Base, Do not challenge anyone else that does in this Forum Section!!

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Now if you come to me and say, I experienced something and I don’t know what it was but I would like to discuss it, then we can have a conversation. This is having an open mind. But if you come to me and you say I experienced something and it was definitely an energy source that creates and connects all life but can’t be found on the electromagnetic scale or reproduce any consistent effects but I just believe it can’t be anything other than this thing I shall call the Force, well then you have a closed mind and there is nothing intellectually for us to discuss.

What I'm trying to get my more skeptical Jedi to understand is there are aspects of The Force that can't be found on electromagnetic spectrum. The energy most are referring to only influences itself and whatever is connected to it. You'll never register it on a scale. Only see the effects on the object of focus..

Your thoughts create impressions on your body's nervous system. Which sends signals for the body to respond in kind.. "Lift arm, look left" your body takes cue from you. It doesn't move autonomously..

Uzima Moto wrote:
What I'm trying to get my more skeptical Jedi to understand is there are aspects of The Force that can't be found on electromagnetic spectrum. The energy most are referring to only influences itself and whatever is connected to it. You'll never register it on a scale. Only see the effects on the object of focus..

Your thoughts create impressions on your body's nervous system. Which sends signals for the body to respond in kind.. "Lift arm, look left" your body takes cue from you. It doesn't move autonomously..

So by your understanding and definitions are you saying that portions of The Force are on the magnetic spectrum? If so how do those interact with reality? by this Im asking what effects on what objects of focus are present?

So my impression of your map of the body is one in which mind or spirit or soul is separate than body, a distinct manifestation that continues on after the bodies death and is responsible for the animation of the physical body. You have also told me that I have misunderstood your concept of "heaven". Can you describe to me what makes you believe that "mind" is separate from body and what is your concept of The Force or Heaven that it returns to upon physical death? Your description hints at the fact that the body will not move without the spirit to manipulate it - that "you" or "self" is not the body. So how did you come to this conclusion that we are not our bodies but instead it consists of two separate things? And by what mechanism or process does the mind or soul use to manipulate or otherwise influence the body to be animated?

Here's a nice translation quote, which has traction to this convo if one were to consider spiritual as mind (subjective experience/knowledge) and martial as body and environment (objective knowledge), by Yang Pan-hou in Wu Ch'uan-yu's 'Forty Chapters' via wikipedia. Just skip the inner cosmology if you find yourself triggered by concepts you don't understand, or choose to acknowledge, or have a rigid understanding of..... as the point is sprinkled throughout and I'm not presenting this as gospel or telling anyone how they must interpret it. In other words try replacing spiritual with mind and martial with body/environment;

The spiritual is the essence, the martial is the application. Spiritual development in the realm of martial arts is applied through the ching (metabolic energy), ch'i (breath energy) and shen (spiritual energy) - the practise of physical culture. When the martial is matched with the spiritual and it is experienced in the body and mind, this then is the practise of martial arts. With the spiritual and martial we must speak of "firing time," for their development unfolds according to the proper sequence. This is the root of physical culture. Therefore, the practise of the martial arts in a spiritual way is soft-style exercise, the sinew power of ching, ch'i and shen. When the martial arts are practical in an exclusively martial way, this is hard style, or simply brute force. The spiritual without martial training is essence without application; the martial without spiritual accompaniment is application without essence. A lone pole cannot stand, a single palm cannot clap. This is not only true of physical culture and martial arts, but all things are subject to this principle. The spiritual is internal principle; the martial is external skill. External skill without internal principle is simply physical ferocity. This is a far cry from the original nature of the art, and by bullying an opponent one eventually invites disaster. To understand the internal principles without the external skill is simply an armchair art. Without knowing the applications, one will be lost in an actual confrontation. When it comes to applying this art, one cannot afford to ignore the significance of the two words: spiritual and martial.

A bit of fun :side:

Uzima Moto wrote: What I usually hear is people not wanting to examine the proof there is and find ways to expand our working knowledge of it. There are plenty of people who have experienced obe's, clairvoyance, precognition, and other "psychic" phenomena. Enough that it's unconscionable to me that the broader "scientific community" avoids it all together.. What I hear is that if we can't detect these phenomena through natural methods, then it doesn't exist.. but that's like trying to catch air in a net..

There are plenty of people with claims of those type of experiences. If you have documentation of people actually having had them, do feel free to share. As far as I'm aware, there is any number of such rumors, often altered tales much different from what ever events transpired, and a slightly smaller number of tests conducted with people who make such claims, that exclusively fail to show any substance to the claims. It is only being avoided after so many resources were wasted on taking the claims seriously. Like if after half a million times a test returns negative, one must ask oneself if one might not have better things to do than try the half a million and first time, just to be sure.
As for the existence of such things, well, to put it the way you did, nobody I know is saying that. If however natural methods fail to show any indication that the phenomenon claimed occurs in nature, then we have no basis to believe that it does. And if the claims is so constructed as to predict indication within measurable margins and the prediction keeps failing in 100% of the attempts, then one is perfectly reasonable in not only not accepting the notion that the claimed thing occurs in nature, but in rejecting it, too. This is not a claim about what is or isn't real, it's about what is or isn't reasonable to believe given the results we keep gathering.

I've had personal experiences with telekinesis. I did a simple experiment.. but besides having things that could pick up the effects of my aura on my body. The main point of the experiment was to see the minds ability to control and project these effects..

Very good. I'm certain if you can replicate your results consistently under controlled conditions, any number of institutions would be happy to fund further research into this new hitherto unknown occurrence and how it can be best employed to save and improve lives. I'm looking forward to hearing about your progress and the good it'll serve yourself and mankind more broadly.

Uzima Moto wrote: What I'm trying to get my more skeptical Jedi to understand is there are aspects of The Force that can't be found on electromagnetic spectrum. The energy most are referring to only influences itself and whatever is connected to it. You'll never register it on a scale. Only see the effects on the object of focus..

How is that different from it not being there at all, though? Surely, when of any thing in the world we say that it "exists", we mean that it engages in some kind of interaction we are able to detect. Sometimes it is as simple as our ability to see it, i.e. it interacts with our eyes (by sending light out) such that we can. Sometimes it is more subtle, like when a stove heats the water and we eventually see it boil, though we never saw any of the infrared light transmitted to the water. Sometimes we can barely detect an effect at all be it not for instruments sensitive enough. But if something affects nothing, then its presence is literally indistinguishable from its absence. If the Force is actually in any meaningful way a part of the world we are another part of, then surely we can only tell that by detecting how it affects things. If it only influences itself and manifests in no other detectable way, how is that different from it not being there at all? And how is anyone allegedly feeling it, if it interacts in no feelable way?

Your thoughts create impressions on your body's nervous system. Which sends signals for the body to respond in kind.. "Lift arm, look left" your body takes cue from you. It doesn't move autonomously..

My agreement here is partial and hesitant. Yes, your mind and body affect each other. What I disagree with is that they are separable. Your mind is as much a produce of your body as the lifting of you arm is. Your brain is running a (admittedly complicated) process we are happy to summarize colloquially as just "the mind" and a lot of the arm lifting your body performs comes from the obedience of particular commands generated by your brain during that process. Whether that counts for autonomousness of your body or not I'm happy to leave to the philosophers to discuss, but if what we know about how stuff works is any good at all then there seems to be no sense in which it makes any to conceive of some kind of ghost in the machine, sitting in control of it.

Gisteron wrote:

Uzima Moto wrote: What I usually hear is people not wanting to examine the proof there is and find ways to expand our working knowledge of it. There are plenty of people who have experienced obe's, clairvoyance, precognition, and other "psychic" phenomena. Enough that it's unconscionable to me that the broader "scientific community" avoids it all together.. What I hear is that if we can't detect these phenomena through natural methods, then it doesn't exist.. but that's like trying to catch air in a net..

There are plenty of people with claims of those type of experiences. If you have documentation of people actually having had them, do feel free to share. As far as I'm aware, there is any number of such rumors, often altered tales much different from what ever events transpired, and a slightly smaller number of tests conducted with people who make such claims, that exclusively fail to show any substance to the claims. It is only being avoided after so many resources were wasted on taking the claims seriously. Like if after half a million times a test returns negative, one must ask oneself if one might not have better things to do than try the half a million and first time, just to be sure.

I have a few times. It's not easily controlled for me, and quite rare. All I can do is share insights into its possible patterns of action and keep exploring techniques to get more control over it. But it would be incorrect to assume that had no benefit in my life just because I cannot control it fully. Whether people believe or not is irrelevant to me, but I've shared these things with Ms Adder ahead of time only to have them come true on half a dozen occasions, and I'm only talking about the higher order instances - as most I bin for being not unique enough to rule out corrupting factors. The higher order events leave no doubt and are never wrong.... its as if its not only up to me for the to occur which I know is really woowoo

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: So by your understanding and definitions are you saying that portions of The Force are on the magnetic spectrum? If so how do those interact with reality? by this Im asking what effects on what objects of focus are present?

So my impression of your map of the body is one in which mind or spirit or soul is separate than body, a distinct manifestation that continues on after the bodies death and is responsible for the animation of the physical body. You have also told me that I have misunderstood your concept of "heaven". Can you describe to me what makes you believe that "mind" is separate from body and what is your concept of The Force or Heaven that it returns to upon physical death? Your description hints at the fact that the body will not move without the spirit to manipulate it - that "you" or "self" is not the body. So how did you come to this conclusion that we are not our bodies but instead it consists of two separate things? And by what mechanism or process does the mind or soul use to manipulate or otherwise influence the body to be animated?

Technically, all things are The Force. Based on the idea of immanency. However, there are deeper manifestations of it "beyond" the physical. This is just where the "current" is slowest. The EMS being a small part. Though one of the aspects that's closest to ethereal energy. The same that's present in our bodies. All objects have bodies of ethereal energy that feed their atomic bodies in a small but meaningful way. Beyond the quantum level..
For whatever reason, our ethereal bodies are alive, organized, and individuated into a single conscious being.. awareness is a trait shared by all life.. but being able to experience it as we do is something exceedingly more complex.. it needs further study.. however that complexity rose with the complexity of our bodies. As if they evolved together..

"You must feel the Force around you. Here, between you…me…the tree…the rock…everywhere!"

Mind, or soul, are separate from the body in nature. Yet they are made for each other and intimately linked. One cannot operate in this world without the other..

Take a person who is brain dead. Their brain is usually damaged to the point where the soul can no longer operate the body. Whether it's still attached is a different story..
Our thoughts, reflexes, and instincts come from the mind. Our ethereal bodies impress upon the ethereal energy of our bioelectric field. One of the easiest "materials" to manipulate due to "lighter" signature in the ethereal. If the body cannot properly respond to impressions nor give proper input for the mind to act on. There's essentially a discordance and the body will not move. It's automated processes still going, but no operator home.. and the soul, being it's own body, wouldn't completely dissolve in the absence of the body. Just sort of disconnect from the vessel and recede into itself..

Gisteron wrote:

Uzima Moto wrote: What I usually hear is people not wanting to examine the proof there is and find ways to expand our working knowledge of it. There are plenty of people who have experienced obe's, clairvoyance, precognition, and other "psychic" phenomena. Enough that it's unconscionable to me that the broader "scientific community" avoids it all together.. What I hear is that if we can't detect these phenomena through natural methods, then it doesn't exist.. but that's like trying to catch air in a net..

There are plenty of people with claims of those type of experiences. If you have documentation of people actually having had them, do feel free to share. As far as I'm aware, there is any number of such rumors, often altered tales much different from what ever events transpired, and a slightly smaller number of tests conducted with people who make such claims, that exclusively fail to show any substance to the claims. It is only being avoided after so many resources were wasted on taking the claims seriously. Like if after half a million times a test returns negative, one must ask oneself if one might not have better things to do than try the half a million and first time, just to be sure.
As for the existence of such things, well, to put it the way you did, nobody I know is saying that. If however natural methods fail to show any indication that the phenomenon claimed occurs in nature, then we have no basis to believe that it does. And if the claims is so constructed as to predict indication within measurable margins and the prediction keeps failing in 100% of the attempts, then one is perfectly reasonable in not only not accepting the notion that the claimed thing occurs in nature, but in rejecting it, too. This is not a claim about what is or isn't real, it's about what is or isn't reasonable to believe given the results we keep gathering.

I've had personal experiences with telekinesis. I did a simple experiment.. but besides having things that could pick up the effects of my aura on my body. The main point of the experiment was to see the minds ability to control and project these effects..

Very good. I'm certain if you can replicate your results consistently under controlled conditions, any number of institutions would be happy to fund further research into this new hitherto unknown occurrence and how it can be best employed to save and improve lives. I'm looking forward to hearing about your progress and the good it'll serve yourself and mankind more broadly.

Uzima Moto wrote: What I'm trying to get my more skeptical Jedi to understand is there are aspects of The Force that can't be found on electromagnetic spectrum. The energy most are referring to only influences itself and whatever is connected to it. You'll never register it on a scale. Only see the effects on the object of focus..

How is that different from it not being there at all, though? Surely, when of any thing in the world we say that it "exists", we mean that it engages in some kind of interaction we are able to detect. Sometimes it is as simple as our ability to see it, i.e. it interacts with our eyes (by sending light out) such that we can. Sometimes it is more subtle, like when a stove heats the water and we eventually see it boil, though we never saw any of the infrared light transmitted to the water. Sometimes we can barely detect an effect at all be it not for instruments sensitive enough. But if something affects nothing, then its presence is literally indistinguishable from its absence. If the Force is actually in any meaningful way a part of the world we are another part of, then surely we can only tell that by detecting how it affects things. If it only influences itself and manifests in no other detectable way, how is that different from it not being there at all? And how is anyone allegedly feeling it, if it interacts in no feelable way?

Your thoughts create impressions on your body's nervous system. Which sends signals for the body to respond in kind.. "Lift arm, look left" your body takes cue from you. It doesn't move autonomously..

My agreement here is partial and hesitant. Yes, your mind and body affect each other. What I disagree with is that they are separable. Your mind is as much a produce of your body as the lifting of you arm is. Your brain is running a (admittedly complicated) process we are happy to summarize colloquially as just "the mind" and a lot of the arm lifting your body performs comes from the obedience of particular commands generated by your brain during that process. Whether that counts for autonomousness of your body or not I'm happy to leave to the philosophers to discuss, but if what we know about how stuff works is any good at all then there seems to be no sense in which it makes any to conceive of some kind of ghost in the machine, sitting in control of it.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=the+second+brain&view=detail&mid=8ABCD50600BDE83EF4CA8ABCD50600BDE83EF4CA&FORM=VRRTAP


I’m not saying I agree one hundred percent with every idea out there but there are people and groups who see things differently- away from tests and labs and explanations. Just food for thought. You may post a explanation of disapproval or even combat against the validity of things like this but you can argue for and against anything now a days - sit in a 9 the grade debate class any where and you will see this in action.

Uzima Moto wrote: Our thoughts, reflexes, and instincts come from the mind. Our ethereal bodies impress upon the ethereal energy of our bioelectric field. One of the easiest "materials" to manipulate due to a "lighter" signature in the ethereal.

I felt the need to expand on this point after rereading my post. Just for some clarification.

There is a historical study of these ideas. Alchemy being one of a good number, mostly Eastern. In Alchemy specifically, the different ethereal bodies of inanimate matter were called "elementals". The theory of being able to change the ethereal and atomic body of one material to another. Lead to the idea of changing lead into gold. Easier said than done, I'm afraid.. in a moral sense, I would be careful of just using it all over the place to fix everything. For a few reasons..

So, there are a few things I've come to learn that are needed to at least understand the idea of how this would actually work.. in theory..

One, maybe most important, is that the ethereal doesn't exist as a separate layer from matter. It's actually the opposite. It's like every atom has an ethereal body according to its nature.. or to be really understood. Every signature of elemental ethereal energy manifests physically as separate elemental atomic structures. Both being extensions of a deeper source. Constituting an ocean of Living Energy..
Every material has a nature according to the elemental signature of its ethereal energy. Some elemental signatures being more "dense" than others, yet more fluid in its ability to change its phase or structure than while in the physical phase..

Second, "ethereal" energy is semi-conscious. In the atomic state, you could say that consciousness falls asleep to a degree. There are several "layers" , or phases, to what's known as the Ethereal. Each less conscious than the phase before it. In the physical state, ethereal energy is sort of sleep walking. Until it begins to organize. The more complex, the more developed, becoming more atuned to the higher phases of the Ethereal, and constitutes its own body.. In those "higher" phases, the conscious aspect is too active to have complexity beyond certain archetypical structures. Thereby getting what is known as dimensional constructs. The basis of all physical constructs. The essence of the "archetype of solidarity" in the Ethereal is the source of solidity, more solid elementals, and consolidation into bodies.. like a tree, branching out from conscious constructs to physical manifestations.. constructs inhabiting all parts..

Lastly, and equally as important as the first. The Ethereal may change from one phase to the next, but the constructs of each phase cannot "crossover" to another. Meaning, the archetype of Death (deconstruction of a body) cannot manifest as a physical construct in and of itself. Its nature acts against the natures of other archetypes, affecting their structures. The "gods" are constantly at war.
When we die our consciousness leaves the physical behind. The atoms aren't dead. They continue to operate as normal. The body is just deconstructed and becomes dust. Our ethereal bodies continue on, going through its own sort of deconstruction.

Uzima Moto wrote: Technically, all things are The Force. Based on the idea of immanency. However, there are deeper manifestations of it "beyond" the physical. This is just where the "current" is slowest. The EMS being a small part. Though one of the aspects that's closest to ethereal energy. The same that's present in our bodies. All objects have bodies of ethereal energy that feed their atomic bodies in a small but meaningful way. Beyond the quantum level.

What is this idea of immanency you are speaking of and how exactly do these ethereal energy bodies “feed” their atomic bodies? You say it’s beyond the quantum level, which is a level currently beyond the capability of science so I am really interested to know exactly how this works since it seems only logical that some sort of sub-quantum process must be in effect here in order to interact with the quantum level.

Uzima Moto wrote: Take a person who is brain dead. Their brain is usually damaged to the point where the soul can no longer operate the body. Whether it's still attached is a different story..
Our thoughts, reflexes, and instincts come from the mind. Our ethereal bodies impress upon the ethereal energy of our bioelectric field. One of the easiest "materials" to manipulate due to "lighter" signature in the ethereal. If the body cannot properly respond to impressions nor give proper input for the mind to act on. There's essentially a discordance and the body will not move. It's automated processes still going, but no operator home.. and the soul, being it's own body, wouldn't completely dissolve in the absence of the body. Just sort of disconnect from the vessel and recede into itself..

So by your reckoning here it seems that who we are, our personalities, thoughts, beliefs etc all come from the ethereal body and the physical body really has no part in this. In fact the physical body is just a “machine” to be manipulated by the ethereal being. And you mention brain damage here but what about instances where the body still functions but damage to the brain causes the personality to completely remake itself. In effect, damage to the brain creates a new personality. How does this physical process of brain damage affect the ethereal personality? I will cite one of the most famous cases here for this discussion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage

Uzima Moto wrote: For whatever reason, our ethereal bodies are alive, organized, and individuated into a single conscious being.. awareness is a trait shared by all life.. but being able to experience it as we do is something exceedingly more complex.. it needs further study..

So this comment in particular caught my attention. It reminded my of a previous conversation we had in which I told you about my unicorn and invited you to participate in some scientific studies to help show some of your ideas as viable. At the time you refused with a vague comment about several reasons. However later in this thread you said people are not wanting to examine the proof and that the wider scientific community avoids it all together. (Comments below)

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Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Would you believe me if I told you I have an invisible unicorn that keep in my garage? And this unicorn does not interact with reality in any conventional way so you wont be able to detect it but I have learned a secret 10,000 year old sumarian process that has been lost to the ages that has taught me how to interact with it.

In any case if you are truly capable of these amazing things you say you are then I encourage you to take James Randy's test. He has 1 million dollars as a prize for anyone that can prove they possess paranormal abilities.

Uzima Moto wrote: Lol I'm not the only one. There are folks who can share that experience..

Apparently there are old little societies that have been doing this for a long time. Also regular private practitioners. All over the place really. It's in all kinds of ancient texts. I can't understand how you couldn't at least acknowledge that when I mentioned it before..

What's really funny though is that it's entirely possible for you to have an imaginary unicorn that didn't interact with the physical.. That would be creating a thought-form. It probably wouldn't do much though. That's part of lucid dreaming also, dream-bending lol.. The opposite mindset of what you would want to have if you're projecting.

I don't think anyone that could take the challenge would do it.. for a few reasons.. It's funny to me, personally.. looking for the right things in the wrong places lol

Uzima Moto wrote: Nobody I know is saying that. What I usually hear is people not wanting to examine the proof there is and find ways to expand our working knowledge of it. There are plenty of people who have experienced obe's, clairvoyance, precognition, and other "psychic" phenomena. Enough that it's unconscionable to me that the broader "scientific community" avoids it all together.. What I hear is that if we can't detect these phenomena through natural methods, then it doesn't exist.. but that's like trying to catch air in a net..

I've had personal experiences with telekinesis. I did a simple experiment.. but besides having things that could pick up the effects of my aura on my body. The main point of the experiment was to see the minds ability to control and project these effects..

So at first you turned down an invitation to further scientific study and later on you lamented that no one is studying such things. So I’m confused, which is it? There are obviously individuals out there that want to study such things further and to even prove their existence, so why not take them up?

Also you seemed to dismiss my Unicorn theory as simply a thought form that “probably would not do much” But I wonder why you have come to this conclusion. You expect that I should take seriously your idea of subtle bodies but you dismiss my idea of Unicorns. In fact I have studied this a great deal since my discovery of the original Sumerian texts and have gleaned a great deal of new information, all subjective of course but I expect that science will catch up someday soon. I now call this phenomena the “Tenuous Unicorn Herd”.

Many can’t detect this herd but some can. I happen to be one that has experienced such things regularly. They are actually responsible for the creation of the universe and exist in a sub-dimension beneath time-space and can manipulate the physical universe. Of course you can’t see this manipulation directly because they are non-corporeal, only their effects. The process used in this come from their single horn. That is the connection point between reality where we exist and non-reality where they exist and that is how they manipulate matter. It is a sub-quantum process that converts not existence into existence. That’s how they create.

This herd is a part of everything that exists and everything that does not exist. Many have experienced this herd or at least individual manifestations of the Unicorn. There are legends and stories and texts that mention the unicorn throughout the centuries. They are even mentioned in the bible! So I think this idea finds relevance in this section of the board. All these stories are based on actual experience but made legend over the millennia or lost to the ages and are just now being rediscovered.

Now I must ask you, why is it so easy to dismiss my theory of the Tenuous Unicorn Herd as you did above? I seem to have just as much proof and evidence as you do of your subtle bodies but you seem to accept that but dismiss mine? What if you are wrong and what you have actually been interacting with is this herd? I think that is the case for you and if you just spend a bit of time with it you will come to realize this. It takes and open mind and lots of meditation to come to know these noble creatures of creation but if you take the time to actually study it I think you will find my observations to be quite accurate. You just have to open yourself to the Unicorn. Happy searching!

Just out of curiosity, Moto, where are you getting all of this from? Like it costs me little to keep pointing out how none of it either makes any sense nor is consistent with how the world works if our observations of it are to be trusted to any extent, but seeing as there seems to be no end to this in sight, I wonder if you are making this up as you go or if it is actually based on anything worthy of our more immediate review. Not trying to be rude or disrespectful here, just curious what it is we're actually dealing with here...

Kyrin, I didn't dismiss your unicorn theory. It's entirely possible for you and some friends to share that experience. You would be sharing a thought-form.. doesn't mean that it would actually have an affect on reality like the concepts I'm speaking on.. you really like to twist words lol..

You also need to understand the difference between investigation smaller occurrences like OBE's and practicing practical applications.. because the science is occult.. like natural science use to be.. so no, I wouldn't take the challenge for that, and other reasons.. if he wants proof, there are plenty of threads to follow..

Gisteron wrote: Just out of curiosity, Moto, where are you getting all of this from? Like it costs me little to keep pointing out how none of it either makes any sense nor is consistent with how the world works if our observations of it are to be trusted to any extent, but seeing as there seems to be no end to this in sight, I wonder if you are making this up as you go or if it is actually based on anything worthy of our more immediate review. Not trying to be rude or disrespectful here, just curious what it is we're actually dealing with here...

You haven't pointed out a thing. It costs you little to keep making strawmen out of my argument.. your passive aggressive disrespect isn't unnoticed..

Tell me though, what do you think of this?..
https://youtu.be/RJ4Uv-5_3VM

Maybe I'm seeing more than you two care to..