In Defense of Gender Roles - A Discussion

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4 years 10 months ago #338949 by Leah Starspectre
Before I launch myself down this rabbit hole, I want to make clear a few potentially pertinent things about myself:

-I believe that humans have the unalienable right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness
-I believe that gender roles should not be forced upon anyone.
-I'm am neither liberal, nor conservative

Ok. Here we go.

Nature and the social development of human civilization has encouraged the division of tasks by gender. I think that GENERALLY, men have thrived in competitive (mental or physical) spheres where they can feel like they are supporting and protecting their loved ones/property. I think that GENERALLY, women have thrived in compassionate spheres where they can care for/nurture others (either in a home or workplace). And this division of labour has allowed civilization to grow and develop to where it is now. Obviously, there are outliers, and as I said above, I think gender roles are not law, but guideline.

So, if humanity has benefited from this, why is our modern society (namely, developed Western societies) trying to erase these gender roles? Women have been told they can have it all, to take on traditionally male roles while still keeping their female ones... but men are discouraged from typically male behaviours such as competitiveness, combativeness, leadership, etc.

Woman are suffering from "Supermom Syndrome." They are expected to have an engaging career, while still being an attentive nurturing mother, while still making time for appropriate self-care. And if they can't do all of these, they're a letting womankind down somehow. Men are suffering from a lack of rites of passage into manhood. Nobody is telling them how to "be a man" anymore, so we have more and more man-children - men who have no real direction, ambition, or sense of social responsibility.

In the meantime, feminism has reached the tipping point between activism and fanaticism, giving rise to the Men's Rights movement (which is often just as bad, though less socially accepted). Mankind and Womankind are at odds rather than working together as a team. Now, this is what it is as portrayed in the media/society, not at the individual level.

I think that the Force itself can be expressed in masculine and feminine energies, as the Force is a part of nature, and nature is (more often than not) divided into male and female. It takes both masculine and feminine to maintain balance, just as it takes light and dark, heavy and light, hot and cold (despite what Watts has to say, ha ha!). So why is it suddenly so bad for society to develop means to create this balance?

Discuss?
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4 years 10 months ago #338952 by Rosalyn J
I would like to state for the record that I do not disagree with any of your points. I think one of the fundamental problems with gender based roles is that they have historically gone hand in hand with opportunity and status in society. Much of the gender role erasure has been about increasing opportunity and status. If the same value was placed on one gender role as another in society I think, particularly in western countries we would be having a different conversation. Historically this has not been the case.

Historically women have been seen as second class citizens incapable of some roles by virtue of gender, but not necessarily qualification. I’m not necessarily talking about becoming a CEO in a fortune 500, I’m talking about being able to vote, own property, maintain bodily autonomy, and open a bank account, all things which men were able to do.

I think what is happening is a bit of social whiplash. The pendulum had swung in the direction of strict boxed gender roles and now its swinging in the direction of individualized roles with no definition but our own. And neither are good as you have so eloquently stated in your opening post. However, having women suffer from Super Mom syndrome or having man without rites of passage (I believe rites of passage should exist for everyone, fyi) or having men unable to be dominant in the way that the gender role might accustom them is a necessary part of the process of seeing where the balance might exist. Naturally the pendulum will swing again and again toward one extreme or the other unless we can understand that we need to value both masculine and feminine roles equally; that how our gifts and talents are expressed is unique to us and how we channel them will be unique to the role that we have in society, but it must be made abundantly clear that one is not “better” than the other.

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4 years 10 months ago #338954 by Zenith Felwood
I really like how Rosalyn mentioned one Gender is not greater then another. I Work in the medical field and Its frustrating to see people try and balance the forces with there egos. Often women say they are not as rough with residents as men are. But then you have Men say Wemon don't have the strength needed. So there is this war that goes on who is more dominate?

When I'm asked to pick a side. I laugh to my self. Every person of any gender (there is more then two genders) has a different skill set. so for someone to stigmatize is someone with a big ego. And we should treat those people with knowledge while bowing down before humility. For IF you as a Jedi Give in to such an unbalance you will only create more unbalance and I feel this is not our objective as Jedi.
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4 years 10 months ago #338955 by Carlos.Martinez3
Here in my home - I’m Jedi. I teach character and individualism to my family and friends and those around me... willing to listen. Facts - my wife works. Fact - I stay at home with our children. No part of any dynamic of our choice has ever been taught or even told us it’s possible. Every choice and decision we have had to - create our selfs for the most part. This is a joy as well as a part of our freedom we elect. In life - we - I mean my wife and I. There are an infinite number of possibilities almost anywhere in the world - even how we view them. Balance - any one can have. I myself can never have enough time for my own balance and that of my own daily and friends. I e seen A LOT of people with the same struggle of balance I have. That self type of individual balance. As I live and breath - I am a chain breaker. That’s what I call it - some may call it different. Gender roles are exactly - to me - the same. Now a days there are sooooo many choices it’s almost a paradox of choice at times. Do we argue about them ? Do we discuss ? Do we educate ? The same questions can be applied to allot anything - even never limited to - Jedi ism.

Me and the wife are one bad @$$ team. We have done the impossible and continue to do so. We also crash hard when we don’t. We don’t survive, we live. We make - we love we loose we learn we grow. My children ... wow. We are blessed to have them. As are we blessed to have our family and friends. Truth be told , by how we are (my family) our friends have realized they can be them. It blows my mind. Kinna like in the Temple but ... in real life. Change is hard. If change was easy - everyone would do it. I can’t and never will speak for others , only myself. I look forward to more of this discussion and hope it yields some good stuff. Thank you as it has already with the wife and me. May the Force continue to be with you !

Pastor of Temple of the Jedi Order
pastor@templeofthejediorder.org
Build, not tear down.
Nosce te ipsum / Cerca trova
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4 years 10 months ago #338958 by Adder
To me its more a mix of preference and capability for each individual when it comes to behaiour. Each sex does impart its own spin on it by virtue of anatomy & physiology but that too varies by individual. So if gender is a culture, mine is my Jedi path - which niether excludes or is defined by normal gender (in theory).

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
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4 years 10 months ago #338960 by JamesSand
I have both (or more, not relevant and I don't care) genders working for me.

Mostly I just want them to do their job.

For better worse, females (as a percentage of their own quantity) are higher represented in the "I'm too damn special to put the team ahead of myself" group.

Males are obviously not exempt from being in that category, but it seems less frequent.

It's also easier for me to sack males, so I can cleanse that disease at a slightly faster rate.

Take all of that however it pleases.



Aside from all that- It's good to see you're still alive and kicking Leah :)
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4 years 10 months ago #338965 by Wescli Wardest

Good observations, points and questions have been brought up already. So I will try to what has been touched on a little but not expounded on.

When people live alone all of the things have to be done by that one person. Doesn’t matter who the role would “normally” be done by or who they think the thing would normally be done by. If it’s going to get done they have to do it. Roles become inconsequential.
The same is true if a bunch of people of the same gender are sharing a home together, roommates.

It doesn’t matter which sex does what thing of what role without respect and appreciation, for the job done and the person that did it, there will be no harmony or peace. It starts when you are young and learning to do things for yourself. Then you learn to appreciate the job you did and to respect yourself.

Once you respect yourself and can appreciate the work you have done. Then it doesn’t matter what sex people think that role should be applied to. And if you have a partner, spouse of friend that respects you and the work you do and appreciates you and is grateful and you gain any enjoyment or pleasure form what you do, then what should it matter.

And just as importantly, show you respect and appreciation to others. Especially for what they do for your benefit. Even if they gain benefit from their efforts as well, they did not have to do it for you! Be grateful! And show it!

And for the “super Mom” syndrome… and this would apply to dads or anyone else that thinks they can do it all on their own. You can’t. There is a reason we come together in societal groups. We need each other. No one can do it all. Even Jesus had people to help him in his daily life. It is fear and ego that leads people to try and be “super.” Fear of not being good enough, being seen as week or weaker, pride… People can lie to themselves and say they are doing it for others but they are just lying to themselves. Learn to ask for help. Learn to accept help! And learn to say no. If you have issue with that I honestly suggest you seek professional help. I don’t mean that sarcastically or cruelly.

Those behaviors are self-destructive and I want for each of you to be healthy and happy. And that always starts with you.

:)

Monastic Order of Knights
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4 years 10 months ago #338975 by ren


men who have no real direction, ambition, or sense of social responsibility.


Is it such a bad thing? The ones I know who fit this description I wouldn't call man-child, that being said they appear much happier than the rest of us. They certainly have a lot more freedom than most.

Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.
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4 years 10 months ago #338980 by Carlos.Martinez3

ren wrote:


men who have no real direction, ambition, or sense of social responsibility.


Is it such a bad thing? The ones I know who fit this description I wouldn't call man-child, that being said they appear much happier than the rest of us. They certainly have a lot more freedom than most.


In my practice I remove labels often. Some can’t do it and that’s ok too but this phrase right here is key to the practice of what I’m talking about .


PEOPLE (not just men or women)who have no real direction, ambition, or sense of social responsibility.

That’s not a gender thing ... it’s a human thing. We can put any label before such a statement and make it a “ race religion gender political party nation philosophy “ these labels and many more can be added before things like this when really it’s not a those problems cuz ... we all got em.

I'm too damn special to put the team ahead of myself"

So there is this war that goes on who is more dominate?
These type of ideas have been around religion and ethics and every other subject . Funny how when I strayed knowing and noticing this that it was a human character thing - most arguments just turned to smoke and blew away. I don’t expect any one other than myself to understand this idea. I can only relay and hope it helps as much others as it has me. Don’t get me wrong - blind hate IS blind hate. You can send bling hate with a gender tag or a Christian tag or a philosophical notation or even a Jedi label... but it’s still ... no matter how you pack it ... blind hate. How do you NOT like some one for a label? How do you hate some one and NOT know their name? Something to think about . Not wanting to take any fire from this at all but I think it is part of the OP as well, maybe a small part . Force be with us!

Pastor of Temple of the Jedi Order
pastor@templeofthejediorder.org
Build, not tear down.
Nosce te ipsum / Cerca trova

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4 years 9 months ago #339071 by ren

JamesSand wrote:
It's also easier for me to sack males, so I can cleanse that disease at a slightly faster rate.


Is it easier from a personal or from a legal perspective?

Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.

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