Discussing ideas, not people

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5 years 22 hours ago #336486 by Carlos.Martinez3
Ideas , not people

Pastor of Temple of the Jedi Order
pastor@templeofthejediorder.org
Build, not tear down.
Nosce te ipsum / Cerca trova
The following user(s) said Thank You: Zenith Felwood

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5 years 22 hours ago #336487 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic Discussing ideas, not people

Zenith Felwood wrote: It would be a great loss to lose you mainly if the accusations you say are true. I really hope people can over look your comments and some things can get worked out more diplomatically.

Please don't take what i say as taking sides. I just know this is the wrong way to go about doing this.

May the force be with you.


Thanks for your contributions? It takes two to tango, and a troop to really dance... but specificity at me aside, I agree with your idealism 100%. That is what the rules try to protect. It's sometimes the rules are hard to enforce. I'm partially to blame because I've long been a proponent of second and third chances and taking a moderate approach. Not only a year ago I was arguing for a softer approach on Kyrin that was being discussed by some Councillors... so who you believe is up to you.

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
The following user(s) said Thank You: Zenith Felwood

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5 years 21 hours ago #336490 by ren
Replied by ren on topic Discussing ideas, not people


Who? Not what I've led to believe. Unless you mean Br John who has admitted more then once he has no IT knowledge and you'd know that does not count. There was Proteus as your assistant for awhile but you told me you didn't give him full access. And it wasn't until recently that Tellahane was able to wrestle a copy from you.



The other mod has pointed out to you that kyrin gets reported for things other people do not get reported for. You are the main source of these reports. When you asked that she be banned it was pointed out to you by the other mod that she had not accrued enough points to warrant it according to the new system. When you showed dissatisfaction with the new system and JL's absense, I suggested you petition the council through the proper channels. The feedback councillors other than me gave you is 'we arent interested, work with Karn and JL as you should'

Everyone who has ever had a bright red name has been able to press a button to perform a backup and download it. I installed the button.
Proteus was my assistant and then full admin when I resigned. He wasnt ready for it and i was asked to come back. I said it couldnt be like before, and it wasnt. Proteus lost it following slanderous accusations from Clint and a few of his friends. Tellahane didnt wrestle a thing from me. He was admin, ragequit one day then came back.

You have no idea what Clint tried to do to totjo. I know because John told me. What I can tell you is that Clint fabricated serious accusations against Proteus and Alexandre Orion. It was me who spent hours going through the logs and their PMs to verify the sick invented claims. I hate clint for it, its no secret. When it comes to Mark he disappeared, I picked up the pieces, he came back like nothing happened. I had a good bitching, i admit it. Someone who is councillor and pastor shouldnt just disappear. He was then permanently driven away by the totjo knights, not by me, and for baffling reasons. They didnt want him to be a Knight anymore I think. Made no sense, didnt pay attention.

And yes, I was referring to your comments about me. They are out of line, stop throwing baseless accusations around.

Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.

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5 years 21 hours ago #336491 by Zenith Felwood
Now can we please go back to the topic.

There tends to be a common adage used in TotJO that goes like this:

"Discuss ideas, not people".

I know that the "spirit" of the adage is to avoid ad hominem fallacies, and especially to deter personal attacks.

However, I do think the separation between "person" and "idea" can be a bit arbitrary (i.e., sometimes it "seems" the "person" is being discussed, when in reality it is a much deeper analysis of the idea - and the motivators and experiences behind it - which is being explored).

My question is: is it possible that by avoiding "discussing the person" we might be missing out on the opportunity to explore ideas, mindsets and deep motivations that might lead to exponential personal growth?

[/quote]

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5 years 21 hours ago #336492 by Zenith Felwood
As seen in this thread i think the point has been proven through rift, raft, anger, hate, emotion. I know even in my work place when people work long hard hours. And management has time crunches people miss important information. Leading them from opportunity of personal growth. The force is stronger as a whole. Devotion is the way of the force not division. That's my thoughts.

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5 years 20 hours ago - 5 years 20 hours ago #336494 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic Discussing ideas, not people

ren wrote:


Who? Not what I've led to believe. Unless you mean Br John who has admitted more then once he has no IT knowledge and you'd know that does not count. There was Proteus as your assistant for awhile but you told me you didn't give him full access. And it wasn't until recently that Tellahane was able to wrestle a copy from you.


The other mod has pointed out to you that kyrin gets reported for things other people do not get reported for. You are the main source of these reports.


Huh? What do you mean by main... did you do a count, is it a gut feeling, or are you making a lie? Because that makes no sense. She'd been banned and had half a dozen threads in Council before I even reported her once LOL.
If your talking about her 'questionable member thread', then that had been going for basically a whole year before I posted any of her behaviour. My rare participation in her thread prior to that had been clarifying why she didn't get Knighted and providing some feedback about how I thought it best to work with questionable members (using PM's etc).
Even up until the 19th of March I still was supporting a moderate approach to her.

ren wrote: And yes, I was referring to your comments about me. They are out of line, stop throwing baseless accusations around.


Oh really, which bit? Was it "I've seen when things come down to the line that is which way it always falls, usually in the face of logic, and he was the only one with full admin access for a very long time". That doesn't seem too harsh to me but it seems to have illicited a strong emotional response in you. Because your replies have been pretty baseless to me.
You say I "unfairly treat kyrin" and have not proven it yet. So... your sorta the one making a baseless accusation. If the best you can come up with is that I have made the most reports against Kyrin, then prove that at least. Even if it were true (which I highly doubt) it is the job of the moderator to make these reports so the powers that be can be the power thats needed, and one troublemaker with many victims will inevitably have more reports on them then the many victims will each have. Plus who starts something gets my attention more then who plays along. It's the 'eastern' approach mate, treat the root cause and the symptoms go away :D

ren wrote: When you asked that she be banned it was pointed out to you by the other mod that she had not accrued enough points to warrant it according to the new system.


Come on Councillor, your bigger then this. I stated that I was not aware the new security policy was in effect because it had not been stated as such and I thought it was still in draft and discussion phase. So I was using the existing older system. I think we still are using the older system at the moment anyway.

ren wrote: When you showed dissatisfaction with the new system and JL's absense,


False on both counts. I indicated JL's absence and pointed to a post where he indicated it so everyone knew as an update on progress. So to facilitate progress and explain delays. Though no system is ideal of course. Maybe you don't like the ideas on the table and intepret their progression as a bad thing and so blame me for it :D

ren wrote: I suggested you petition the council through the proper channels. The feedback councillors other than me gave you is 'we arent interested, work with Karn and JL as you should'


You are the proper channel and you saw the request.... so the more salient question is why you didn't you take it to Council. Again perhaps because you don't agree? I hope not, your position should be above that subjective bias. But I didn't start this anyway.... Rosalyn J had already drafted a letter to Kyrin in the preceding month, and it has been discussed in Council well before I posted it. But back to me, I discussed it with other Councillors who gave a directive in the absence of JL. So..... whats your point again?

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
Last edit: 5 years 20 hours ago by Adder.

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5 years 20 hours ago #336495 by ren
Replied by ren on topic Discussing ideas, not people
I already explained to you that a q thread or any other random thread is not the appropriate way of contacting the council. You cab pm a formal request if you want to make one, although based on the feedback you had so far i think you know what the answer will be. As to the rest...

I have no need to prove anything. I have better things than to track down every single post that breaks the rules and demonstrate to you you have ignored every single one that isn't made by kyrin. I have no need to demonstrate to you that you have a personal bias in those reports you made. I have no need to make you a better man or mod or whatever. It's your call. I don't care. What I see is that you were being unfair and as such I must intervene.

You insinuated that it has to do with Zenchi. It doesn't. It has to do with you. If you didnt want to be told, you shouldn't have insinuated.

Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.

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5 years 20 hours ago #336498 by Manu
Replied by Manu on topic Discussing ideas, not people
@Adder your posts are usually written in such a precise and articulate way that some of us (mostly me) finds it utterly incomprehensible. I find it rather refreshing to see you write in a more straightforward style.

@All I realize many, especially newcomers, might interpret the direction this thread has taken as “scandalous”, aggressive or “un-Jedi”. But I would caution anyone from dismissing this thread as “folly” that results from not following rules, and appreciate the transparency that flows from this apparent chaos.

It is a bonding moment. At least I see it that way. I have come to appreciate everyone here more, as the elegant poised persona is removed to reveal the passionate, beautiful beings you are.

The pessimist complains about the wind;
The optimist expects it to change;
The realist adjusts the sails.
- William Arthur Ward
The following user(s) said Thank You: ren, OB1Shinobi

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5 years 20 hours ago #336500 by Zenith Felwood
Both of u are out of line I wish I could close this thread. Pointless arguments.

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5 years 20 hours ago - 5 years 20 hours ago #336501 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic Discussing ideas, not people

ren wrote: I already explained to you that a q thread or any other random thread is not the appropriate way of contacting the council. You cab pm a formal request if you want to make one, although based on the feedback you had so far i think you know what the answer will be. As to the rest...


I think you mean the other person who asked for action to be taken. But that was after my request. I agree the q thread is not the right place to ensure the right person sees it, but the right person did see it. I posted it there because I didn't want it to be on record in case you ignored a PM request. I should have just posted it in Council but since the topic was alive it seemed apt. The question remains why you chose to ignore it I suppose. But you've since indicated a vote needs to be motioned and seconded by a Councillor perhaps you yourself were waiting for it to happen in that thread - in which case it was the right place for it didn't make it into Council!!!

ren wrote: I have no need to prove anything. I have better things than to track down every single post that breaks the rules and demonstrate to you you have ignored every single one that isn't made by kyrin. I have no need to demonstrate to you that you have a personal bias in those reports you made. I have no need to make you a better man or mod or whatever. It's your call. I don't care. What I see is that you were being unfair and as such I must intervene.


Then they stand as baseless, and you could have spared us all if you didn't make the accusations. I can point out other posts of mine in Kyrin's thread where I'm supporting a calmer approach to her then others are.

ren wrote: You insinuated that it has to do with Zenchi. It doesn't. It has to do with you. If you didnt want to be told, you shouldn't have insinuated.


You trippin? See you keep making accusations without any evidence. If you keep it up I'll just have to assume your lying outright. When does this issue I seem to have with Kyrin begin and how does this relate to her problems at the Temple!!!?

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
Last edit: 5 years 20 hours ago by Adder.

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