What is the Force

Do [strike]people[/strike] I agree that the Force is actually real? That it is something which exists as a feature of reality, independent of our personal or collective mental projections?

Yep. Sort of like the 'akasha'.... but given the tools at hand it seems only accessible through cognition, so the consideration of it beyond the mental serves no practical use to me.

Do [strike]people[/strike] I agree that we are all individually connected to the Force and collectively connected to each other via the Force?

Yea but, being part of something and being connected through it are different things. We might all be part of it (be of it) but not be able to connect to it in higher functional ways like signal processing.

Do [strike]people[/strike] I agree either that the Force communicates to us or that we are able to perceive or understand things about it which can help us to make better decisions in our lives?

Yes except its more a receiver driven connection, then a signal driven reception. Such that the skills are being able to clear the proverbial ear wax out of our ears to have half a chance of even beginning. Which is the opposite of what most societies are used to which seems to be using excess to drench ourselves in an experience.

Do [strike]people[/strike] I agree that the Force is not limited to humans but is intrinsically related to life itself?

Think its in all things, but easier to connect in depth to things which share similar depths.

Is the Force real?

Well, most of the posts here do usually contain, to some degree, the words 'the Force is'. Perhaps, in those subtle chords, we see the Force manifesting itself.

Personally, I've experienced the reality of the Force. I know it IS. Can I prove it? No. Nor would I dare try. Discovering it for oneself is a beautiful moment, so I would dare not ruin it for anyone.

Edit.

To some degree, we all believe the Force is real.
It's right there in 'Jedi Believe'. One cannot be a Jedi and deny the Force.

Without it, Jedi realists are just cosplayers.
Force realists are just crazy. And Jediists are praying into the wind. We all believe in its exsistance... And, in the end, that makes it as real as any of us.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Loudzoo wrote: That is another thread - perhaps for when this one has run its course . . .

Uh, what? That is this very thread. Why are you deflecting the question to an aspect of some future discussion. Face the fact that it is this very discussion and try and address it instead of avoid it or put it off.

LOL - I'm not trying to put it off!! They are closely related discussions, but I genuinely didn't want to derail this thread.

So a quick bit on identity:

Kyrin said:
“I am a separate sentient individual connected to the universe only through the fact that I am made of the same star dust.”

Many people think like this and many have argued it is wrong to believe that this is the only connection. For a start we have different connections with different parts of the universe. Our genes, our environment, our culture and our experiences all lead us to different connections with different things. I do not have the same connection with my brother as I have with my wife - for instance!

Beyond that fairly uncontroversial start, with introspection and self-enquiry people from all over the world and all across history have had the insight that we are much more than separate sentient individuals. Each of these insights is unique - in the technical sense -but they have much more in common than not. What do these experiences have in common?

- realisation that the separate ego is a fiction
- that consciousness is ubiquitous and unilateral
- that we mis-identify with our thoughts and our emotions. We are not the voices in our heads, we are the listener.
- that as individuals we are one role being played in the cosmic drama and that the same actor is actually playing all the roles
- that we are much more connected than we are separated. That separation is an illusion.
- that gender, race, personality and age differences are only superficial in comparison to the depth of the underlying, integrated, shared identity we can uncover

If we haven’t had the privilege of such a unifying experience we will be likely to conclude:

“Because of this we all perceive the force in a singularly unique way.”

It is true - but it is a long way from the whole truth. The shared ground is much more substantial than that which is unique. Goes for experiences of the ground itself, and of our true identity too. The Force is the connection and it is the individuated ‘difference’ too.

@loudzoo, yes I agree we are connected to our reality in a myriad of ways. But just as many people have the experience of distinct individuality as those that have the experience that we are more than separate individuals.

That the ego is an emergant property of consciousness, that consciousness is a function of the brain, that when you peel away those layers of emotion and thought there is no listener, that the cosmic drama you speak of is an illusion created by us because of an evolutionary need to see patterns. That in fact our very sense of self as a contiguous entity does not really exist and we are really alone in the universe - separate.

So I have touched the tail of the elephant and you have touched the trunk. My question then is, what is in between? You are trying to tell me we are connected by the trunk because you and others have experienced the trunk. But I'm telling you I have touched the tail. However the difference is I'm not trying to assert here that we are connected by the tail. I want to know what connects the tail to the trunk? What is it that connects a single idea we each experience differently and could never prove to the other anyway but yet we cant deny exists as a single entity?

Loudzoo wrote: So a quick bit on identity:

Kyrin said:
“I am a separate sentient individual connected to the universe only through the fact that I am made of the same star dust.”

Many people think like this and many have argued it is wrong to believe that this is the only connection. For a start we have different connections with different parts of the universe. Our genes, our environment, our culture and our experiences all lead us to different connections with different things. I do not have the same connection with my brother as I have with my wife - for instance!

Beyond that fairly uncontroversial start, with introspection and self-enquiry people from all over the world and all across history have had the insight that we are much more than separate sentient individuals. Each of these insights is unique - in the technical sense -but they have much more in common than not. What do these experiences have in common?

- realisation that the separate ego is a fiction
- that consciousness is ubiquitous and unilateral
- that we mis-identify with our thoughts and our emotions. We are not the voices in our heads, we are the listener.
- that as individuals we are one role being played in the cosmic drama and that the same actor is actually playing all the roles
- that we are much more connected than we are separated. That separation is an illusion.
- that gender, race, personality and age differences are only superficial in comparison to the depth of the underlying, integrated, shared identity we can uncover

If we haven’t had the privilege of such a unifying experience we will be likely to conclude:

“Because of this we all perceive the force in a singularly unique way.”

It is true - but it is a long way from the whole truth. The shared ground is much more substantial than that which is unique. Goes for experiences of the ground itself, and of our true identity too. The Force is the connection and it is the individuated ‘difference’ too.

Well said, I couldn't agree with you more.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: @loudzoo, yes I agree we are connected to our reality in a myriad of ways. But just as many people have the experience of distinct individuality as those that have the experience that we are more than separate individuals.

That the ego is an emergant property of consciousness, that consciousness is a function of the brain, that when you peel away those layers of emotion and thought there is no listener, that the cosmic drama you speak of is an illusion created by us because of an evolutionary need to see patterns. That in fact our very sense of self as a contiguous entity does not really exist and we are really alone in the universe - separate.

So I have touched the tail of the elephant and you have touched the trunk. My question then is, what is in between? You are trying to tell me we are connected by the trunk because you and others have experienced the trunk. But I'm telling you I have touched the tail. However the difference is I'm not trying to assert here that we are connected by the tail. I want to know what connects the tail to the trunk? What is it that connects a single idea we each experience differently and could never prove to the other anyway but yet we cant deny exists as a single entity?

What's to say that someone who has touched the tail can't walk over and touch the trunk, and vice versa?

Kira wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: @loudzoo, yes I agree we are connected to our reality in a myriad of ways. But just as many people have the experience of distinct individuality as those that have the experience that we are more than separate individuals.

That the ego is an emergant property of consciousness, that consciousness is a function of the brain, that when you peel away those layers of emotion and thought there is no listener, that the cosmic drama you speak of is an illusion created by us because of an evolutionary need to see patterns. That in fact our very sense of self as a contiguous entity does not really exist and we are really alone in the universe - separate.

So I have touched the tail of the elephant and you have touched the trunk. My question then is, what is in between? You are trying to tell me we are connected by the trunk because you and others have experienced the trunk. But I'm telling you I have touched the tail. However the difference is I'm not trying to assert here that we are connected by the tail. I want to know what connects the tail to the trunk? What is it that connects a single idea we each experience differently and could never prove to the other anyway but yet we cant deny exists as a single entity?

What's to say that someone who has touched the tail can't walk over and touch the trunk, and vice versa?

In the metaphor, 'touching the tail' or 'touching the trunk' is equivalent to experiencing a particular idea as the Force. You cannot walk over and 'touch the trunk', because you cannot experience the idea within someone else's head. You cannot come to understand exactly their experience of the Force, because you're not them. Even if they related the idea to you, you'd look at the words given to you through your own lens, and so it would not be the same idea.

Not specifically my own views, just trying to come at it from that skeptical view point.

Shepherd wrote:

Kira wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: @loudzoo, yes I agree we are connected to our reality in a myriad of ways. But just as many people have the experience of distinct individuality as those that have the experience that we are more than separate individuals.

That the ego is an emergant property of consciousness, that consciousness is a function of the brain, that when you peel away those layers of emotion and thought there is no listener, that the cosmic drama you speak of is an illusion created by us because of an evolutionary need to see patterns. That in fact our very sense of self as a contiguous entity does not really exist and we are really alone in the universe - separate.

So I have touched the tail of the elephant and you have touched the trunk. My question then is, what is in between? You are trying to tell me we are connected by the trunk because you and others have experienced the trunk. But I'm telling you I have touched the tail. However the difference is I'm not trying to assert here that we are connected by the tail. I want to know what connects the tail to the trunk? What is it that connects a single idea we each experience differently and could never prove to the other anyway but yet we cant deny exists as a single entity?

What's to say that someone who has touched the tail can't walk over and touch the trunk, and vice versa?

In the metaphor, 'touching the tail' or 'touching the trunk' is equivalent to experiencing a particular idea as the Force. You cannot walk over and 'touch the trunk', because you cannot experience the idea within someone else's head. You cannot come to understand exactly their experience of the Force, because you're not them. Even if they related the idea to you, you'd look at the words given to you through your own lens, and so it would not be the same idea.

Not specifically my own views, just trying to come at it from that skeptical view point.

Though we can't get into someone else's head to experience the tail or the trunk exactly as someone else sees it, we can alter our approach. We can utilize another's techniques, and practices to approach from a different angle and achieve new insight. Our interpretations will likely still be somewhat unique, but at least, if we're trying to find common ground, we're not approaching these questions exclusively in totally different ways.

Have you ever listened to a flat-earther debate? Have you ever noticed that when they do, they always base each notion they have upon a starting paradigm of the flat-earth model from which most round earth arguments will not be fully able to get through to because round-earth notions do not make sense or work with flat-earth paradigms? What's all the more fascinating is that vice versa occurs as well (the round earth foundational paradigm cannot make room for humoring flat earth notions because it doesn't fit).

It seems to show that what one comes to believe about an idea of existence tends to be determined by one's starting point of what they have already decided must be be true. Whatever one believes the nature of the Force (and what one can see or cannot see about the the elephant) is I think very influenced by the starting paradigm of the individual.

Because of this, I think that when talking about the force, even theoretically, it helps to explore personally why we see or don't see what we do - to acknowledge where we are personally "coming from".

I'm currently in a personal limbo about where I'm at and may be for some time while I gather new information from both internal and external sources about who I am and what there is.