What is the Force

Hmm let's say I don't know whether the soul exists to much the same extent to which I don't know whether anything at all does. The sort of uncertainty we have still open to play with is so bloody slim that really nothing anyone would associate with a soul would fit in anymore. Sure, one can make the argument that the world around us is entirely unreal and that all the understanding we have of it is purely coincidental, and that's technically not logically impossible. If that's how far one is willing to go just to be able to assert some kind of spirit force, all I can do is wish them a merry journey, but I'll be alas staying behind in this here world of pure imagination myself, thanks...

I breathe in the Force; I breathe out the Force
I am motionless with the Force; I move with the Force
I think with the Force; I am empty with the Force

I am Kind with the Force; I am Compassionate with the Force
I defend with the Force; I heal with the Force
I Serve with the Force; I Love with the Force

It is the Light in the Darkness; It is the Darkness in the Light
It is All Things; It is Nothing
It is in Life; It is in Lifelessness

The Force is Me; I am the Force!

Gisteron wrote: Hmm let's say I don't know whether the soul exists to much the same extent to which I don't know whether anything at all does. The sort of uncertainty we have still open to play with is so bloody slim that really nothing anyone would associate with a soul would fit in anymore. Sure, one can make the argument that the world around us is entirely unreal and that all the understanding we have of it is purely coincidental, and that's technically not logically impossible. If that's how far one is willing to go just to be able to assert some kind of spirit force, all I can do is wish them a merry journey, but I'll be alas staying behind in this here world of pure imagination myself, thanks...

Modern Neuroscience says almost exactly this: the reality we experience IS unreal. Our senses and cognition create our reality. To the extent we experience a shared reality that is because we have similar senses and similar cognition. Our senses did not evolve to tell us what reality is, they evolved for our survival. For anyone interested in this I recommend reading / listening / watching Prof Beau Lotto or Dr. David Eagleman.

http://www.creativitypost.com/science/deviate_the_science_of_seeing_differently_by_beau_lotto

Science tells us we live in a world of illusion. Hinduism teaches a similar lesson, as did Plato - and so on . . .

We don’t need to invoke anything supernatural to develop a conception of our unity, our connection, our shared consciousness and the beautiful precision of our Universe. The Force is not merely a god of the gaps in our scientific understanding either. Our understanding of IT should be entirely compatible with good science, mystery and awe undiminished.

In addition to that - what Phortis said

Manu wrote:

Uzima Moto wrote: DARKNESS is not alive..

The simple fact that simple atoms, like those in a star, eventually coalesce into complex, and sometimes conscious, lifeforms. Tells me that we use the word "living" incorrectly in popular culture. I'd rather use "animate", or "having soul" to differentiate. Existence is living, having soul experiences existence, consciousness contemplates the experience of existence..

How could knowing that everything is living cheapen the experience for you? It connects me to EVERYTHING around me on a level I didn't think possible.. Maybe there's some pride in feeling special. Though I wouldn't consider people here religious. Ironically, that's the same talk I hear from Creationists. "If God didn't hand craft us, and we're just random acts of nature. Then there's nothing special about us."

Which my question that is twofold..
What is special to you?
Why do you need to feel special?

I feel aware, not special. I know that, under The Force itself, we as conscious beings are the pinnacle of Reality as far as complexity goes. We, similar to The Force, are a sum of all parts. Mental, emotional, physical, and spiritual. Although, The Force is generator of all parts.. yet also the consummation of them as well.. in a literal sense.. Alpha and Omega..

Ok. So, if the Force is everything, then why do we need to even think about “The Force” as a new term with distinct meaning, if we already have the word “everything”?

That's the point really.. it's always been said, in different ways, that The Kingdom is inside and outside. I just feel I've touched that.. vibration.. at least once in my life. It's stuck with me ever since.. It's is everything we see and don't see. Scientific inquiry will be hard pressed to find material evidence of non-material phenomena. So as good as it is, it only goes so far.. unless you sort of apply the method to it, I guess..

The fact that someone can deny their soul shows they have one.. and a mind to go with it.. to rationalize the experience.. and to make of it what they will.. though, reality itself is objective and exists as it does regardless of what we think..

Uzima Moto wrote:

Manu wrote:

Uzima Moto wrote: DARKNESS is not alive..

The simple fact that simple atoms, like those in a star, eventually coalesce into complex, and sometimes conscious, lifeforms. Tells me that we use the word "living" incorrectly in popular culture. I'd rather use "animate", or "having soul" to differentiate. Existence is living, having soul experiences existence, consciousness contemplates the experience of existence..

How could knowing that everything is living cheapen the experience for you? It connects me to EVERYTHING around me on a level I didn't think possible.. Maybe there's some pride in feeling special. Though I wouldn't consider people here religious. Ironically, that's the same talk I hear from Creationists. "If God didn't hand craft us, and we're just random acts of nature. Then there's nothing special about us."

Which my question that is twofold..
What is special to you?
Why do you need to feel special?

I feel aware, not special. I know that, under The Force itself, we as conscious beings are the pinnacle of Reality as far as complexity goes. We, similar to The Force, are a sum of all parts. Mental, emotional, physical, and spiritual. Although, The Force is generator of all parts.. yet also the consummation of them as well.. in a literal sense.. Alpha and Omega..

Ok. So, if the Force is everything, then why do we need to even think about “The Force” as a new term with distinct meaning, if we already have the word “everything”?

That's the point really.. it's always been said, in different ways, that The Kingdom is inside and outside. I just feel I've touched that.. vibration.. at least once in my life. It's stuck with me ever since.. It's is everything we see and don't see. Scientific inquiry will be hard pressed to find material evidence of non-material phenomena. So as good as it is, it only goes so far.. unless you sort of apply the method to it, I guess..

The fact that someone can deny their soul shows they have one.. and a mind to go with it.. to rationalize the experience.. and to make of it what they will.. though, reality itself is objective and exists as it does regardless of what we think..

The Kingdom?

Uzima Moto wrote: The fact that someone can deny their soul shows they have one.. and a mind to go with it.. to rationalize the experience.. and to make of it what they will.. though, reality itself is objective and exists as it does regardless of what we think..

So I get the whole “I think, therefore I am” angle there, but to say that the ability to deny the soul is proof for its existence is a conclusion I have no idea how you reached.

Loudzoo wrote: Modern Neuroscience says almost exactly this: the reality we experience IS unreal. Our senses and cognition create our reality.

Arguably. Does it say, though, that we are not sensing anything at all? Because that's the kind of non-reality I was referring to. I'm not saying that we know there are no souls the same way we know that our senses are reliable. We don't. But we know there are no souls the same way we know that we even have any such thing as senses, that there is any kind of thing out there for us to sense at all. No, we don't know that with full certainty, we don't technically know that with any. If denying reality - or "their own reality", as the case may be - is what it takes to assert fantasies, that's fine. Fortunately there are enough of us around doing useful things that the rest can afford wasting their time like that.

To the extent we experience a shared reality that is because we have similar senses and similar cognition. Our senses did not evolve to tell us what reality is, they evolved for our survival.

Correct. All of that assumes that we exist and can live and die, and have offspring. If we want to assert souls we'd have to deny all of that and more.

For anyone interested in this I recommend reading / listening / watching Prof Beau Lotto or Dr. David Eagleman.

http://www.creativitypost.com/science/deviate_the_science_of_seeing_differently_by_beau_lotto

Science tells us we live in a world of illusion. Hinduism teaches a similar lesson, as did Plato - and so on . . .

I am not sufficiently familiar with Hinduism to comment on that but science and Plato don't, not in the way required here at any rate. Also, I don't know who David Eagleman is, but Beau Lotto is nowadays more of a speaker than a scientist. His most recent research paper that I could actually find was published in 2011 and cited twice since then. His UCL page features no publications either. If someone has any kind of metrics on him, I'd be happy to see them. So yea, I'm not educated enough in the field to criticize anything he says (though the article linked was of course not written by him anyway), but I have for now insufficient grounds to recognize him as an authority on the subject.

We don’t need to invoke anything supernatural to develop a conception of our unity, our connection, our shared consciousness and the beautiful precision of our Universe.

Hear, hear!

Uzima Moto wrote: Scientific inquiry will be hard pressed to find material evidence of non-material phenomena.

I disagree. If they are phenomena, that means they can be perceived, detected somehow. I'm not sure what "material evidence" or "non-material phenomena" means here, but I suspect that what you are saying here is that there is something quite real that science is unfit to investigate. You are wrong. The only way science could be blocked off from analyzing a thing is if that thing made no impact on anything in which case its existence would be literally indistinguishable from its non-existence.

The fact that someone can deny their soul shows they have one..

Please, explain. While you're at it, please, explain how it also overcomes all of the everything else that shows that they do not?

So I choose this thread to read as my return to the Temple, and may I say, you all have very wonderful ideas and thoughts on "The Force". As I read through them I realized when I got to the end that I should have stopped at the beginning. That is not to say I wasted my time, by no means. All of the comments are worth the read and are enlightening into your thoughts, personalities and backgrounds.

The culmination of all that I have read goes back to what Adder said at the beginning...

YES!

Although it is good to discuss and to question all things, don't lose focus on the basic truth of The Force. IT IS! How it exists is compelling and interesting to the point that we all are searching for more. People have been searching for the answer to the God question since the beginning of thought, so it is fitting that we search for the question of The Force.

For me, it is simpler to take in the Buddhist idea of suffering. Once we accept suffering as a part of our lives, it no longer becomes painful. (I'm paraphrasing. I don't remember the whole text as I sit here typing)

So in this context , Once we view The Force as part of our Universe, there will be no need to fret about it.

Or in other words YES! Thanks Adder.

I can't wait to read more on this and other threads. The Force works in mysterious ways don't it?

While I am enjoying this thread can I just say that I'm overjoyed to see your return!

Good to see you Master.

Phortis Nespin wrote: Although it is good to discuss and to question all things, don't lose focus on the basic truth of The Force. IT IS! How it exists is compelling and interesting to the point that we all are searching for more. People have been searching for the answer to the God question since the beginning of thought, so it is fitting that we search for the question of The Force.

For me, it is simpler to take in the Buddhist idea of suffering. Once we accept suffering as a part of our lives, it no longer becomes painful.

I think you have missed the point of this thread. We all agree it is. That is not in question. But what is the nature of this basic truth? Why is it and how is it? That is the question. The idea that accepting suffering alleviates pain is a misnomer. It is the acceptance of pain that gives meaning to suffering! So what is it about the force that gives it meaning in our lives? In other words, sure the force exists, but why do we care about that?