Qui Gon Jinn's Deepest, Darkest Jedi Secret

OB1Shinobi wrote: How many old ladies can i help to cross the road before i have to kick one into traffic to preserve the balance of the Force?

None, please and thank you.

Arisaig wrote:
That is, at least, if we assume balance means darkness is required for balance. Or, at least, equal parts thereof

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This logic is flawed. If this scale represents all the forces of light and dark then there can be nothing added to the dark that does not come from the light. It will adjust the fulcrum and things will always be balanced no matter how much light and dark is present on either side. Also what is to dictate that light must be the heaver factor in this paradigm? balance can be just as easily achieved if darkness is the prevailing factor and there is nothing to stand against that. This idea that good things should always happen is invalid. Two people go for a job interview. Both can not get the job. There must be a loser. Is that evil or just life in a competitive realm? Bad things happen to good people and there is no ultimate justice to fix it. Its just the way it is. By these measures balance must come in equal measure of both extremes.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Arisaig wrote:
That is, at least, if we assume balance means darkness is required for balance. Or, at least, equal parts thereof

[/color]

This logic is flawed. If this scale represents all the forces of light and dark then there can be nothing added to the dark that does not come from the light. It will adjust the fulcrum and things will always be balanced no matter how much light and dark is present on either side. Also what is to dictate that light must be the heaver factor in this paradigm? balance can be just as easily achieved if darkness is the prevailing factor and there is nothing to stand against that. This idea that good things should always happen is invalid. Two people go for a job interview. Both can not get the job. There must be a loser. Is that evil or just life in a competitive realm? Bad things happen to good people and there is no ultimate justice to fix it. Its just the way it is. By these measures balance must come in equal measure of both extremes.

No. Taking from the light to give to the dark doesn't move the fulcrum, but it does tip the scales.

Two people can go to an interview and both can not get the job as well.

And not getting the job isn't an evil, or wrong, or darkness. Its life, and the Force will guide you to where you need to be.

Hell, it guided me across an ocean to give me my dream job after many denied jobs in my home country...

Overall, this is my view on the Force, Potentium. So yeah, could be balanced if everyone is in darkness, running around murdering each other, claiming personal power rather than helping each other, and playing everyone against each other. But that's not my view, nor would I settle for that reality.

Balance is a juggling act. How much can I exert myself physically without getting ill? How much can I dedicate myself to work without hurting my personal relationships? How many old ladies can I help cross the street without being too late for work and getting fired?

It has nothing to do with committing an equal amount of "evil" actions in order to avoid being "too good".

It has to do with measuring cause and consequence in order to secure the best desired outcome with as little collateral damage as possible... or at least that is what I gathered from the Jedi Order. "Politicians are corrupt, but at least we have a functioning democracy that help billions of being thrive across the Galaxy. Now let's go end that trade dispute before things get out of hand and war comes".

Did Anakin bring balance to the Force? I would bet that prophecy was misunderstood.

I just wanna know how long it took you juggle all that with your feet....

Arisaig wrote: No. Taking from the light to give to the dark doesn't move the fulcrum, but it does tip the scales.

Then how did you determine where that scale fulcrum is? If the fulcrum does not move how do you claim that good is the larger side or even should be the larger side?

Arisaig wrote: So yeah, could be balanced if everyone is in darkness, running around murdering each other, claiming personal power rather than helping each other, and playing everyone against each other. But that's not my view, nor would I settle for that reality.

Everyone or just half the population? Settling for something or not does not change anything. What you are advocating is "might makes right" not good must prevail over dark. If the dark takes over you must be ok with it by this paradigm as it invalidates the Jedi philosophy.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Arisaig wrote: No. Taking from the light to give to the dark doesn't move the fulcrum, but it does tip the scales.

Then how did you determine where that scale fulcrum is? If the fulcrum does not move how do you claim that good is the larger side or even should be the larger side?

I didn't. The world did. We don't settle for a world ruled by injustice, and strive for justice for all. But you'll disagree with that.

And I claim it because that is how I view it. The world, and in turn the Force, does better when people aren't selfish and think of others and the world at large over themselves.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Everyone or just half the population? Settling for something or not does not change anything. What you are advocating is "might makes right" not good must prevail over dark. If the dark takes over you must be ok with it by this paradigm as it invalidates the Jedi philosophy.

No, I don't have to be okay with that paradigm, nor should I, because it would be a massive throwing off of the scales, otherwise balanced in light only.

You do understand how scales work, right? Moving weight about a balanced scale doesn't magically move the fulcrum as well.

And I am not advocating for might makes right. I am advocating for right makes right. If the world tells me murder is okay, is it? No, because it is an injustice to the person I kill and to myself for stooping from my station as a Jedi to partake in what the 'might' says is 'right'.

But, again, my philosophy. I know it isn't yours, Kyrin, nor would you be able to sway me from it.

Arisaig wrote: . We don't settle for a world ruled by injustice, and strive for justice for all. But you'll disagree with that.

We don’t? Are there not injustices done every day? Not only by humans to each other but by disease, natural disaster, accident and unforeseen consequences? How do you avoid or strive to fix all of these injustices that are built into the very fabric of our existence? Pretending they do not exist or discounting them do not make them go away. Life is inherently unfair.

Arisaig wrote: And I claim it because that is how I view it. The world, and in turn the Force, does better when people aren't selfish and think of others and the world at large over themselves.

Can you prove “the force” does better? What does it even mean for the force to “do better”?

Arisaig wrote: You do understand how scales work, right? Moving weight about a balanced scale doesn't magically move the fulcrum as well.

Sure, I get it. But if we are striving for this “better” force as you say, where was it before? Wont making it “better” unbalance it the other way?

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: We don’t? Are there not injustices done every day? Not only by humans to each other but by disease, natural disaster, accident and unforeseen consequences? How do you avoid or strive to fix all of these injustices that are built into the very fabric of our existence? Pretending they do not exist or discounting them do not make them go away. Life is inherently unfair.

I agree. It is unfair. Injustices happen all the time, constantly, and everywhere.

But just because they happen doesn't mean we've settled for them. Laws are just one form of fights ng these injustices, as an example.

We can thank our good friend Mr. Dark Side for that, throwing off the balance and tempting people with easy power in exchange for injustices against their fellow man.

Natural Disasters are part of life as well, and these events get worse and worse as selfish men throw off the balance of the world (pollution, global warming, carbon emissions, increasing carbon footprints). Yes, these disasters always happen, but they are getting worse. And if we don't start taking better care of this planet, it'll remove us... and the scales will balance again.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Can you prove “the force” does better? What does it even mean for the force to “do better”?

Nope. But it is my views on this metaphysical energy. Nor do I need to provide proof.

We're not letting another thread by derailed by demanding proof for the un-provable. Thank you.

As you said, its not doing well. It is off balance. So yeah, it can do better.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Sure, I get it. But if we are striving for this “better” force as you say, where was it before? Wont making it “better” unbalance it the other way?

As you said before, life is unfair. Injustices happen. Evil men reign supreme, furthering the problems of the world.

So, yeah, we're upsetting the current balance... which I view as massively thrown off, by encouraging more people to be better, come to the Light, and bring the scales back into balance.

Thanks for your help proving that point! Couldn't have done it better myself!

Arisaig wrote:
Thanks for your help proving that point! Couldn't have done it better myself! [/color]

Claiming victory where none exists is disingenuous. You never answered my question.