Kayfabe and the Creation of Alternative Truth

Masks, actors... heroes and villains. Sounds exciting, eh? To live in a world of intrigue, good overcoming evil, evil rising up and needing to be destroyed! And you can side with them against that fight! *epic score building in the background*

AAAAnnnnd *record scratch*

its all a lie. Characters of our own design. And, increasingly, its being used. For those that watch the video, you know what I'm talking about. For those that just wanna read... well... norm notes version...

Kayfabe, a WWE term for the character that the wrestlers play, one and off the ring. But now we see it expanding into social media (fake beef, diss tracks, rivalries created to promote each other and drive views), and even into politics to create a mask that is impenetrable, a symbol of "I'm the hero against the rising evil! Side with me!"

What do you think of it? Do you think it can be, legitimately, used for good? Or is it simply a tool to generate and escalate drama? Do we know anyone here in the Jedi community that uses tools like this, and should Jedi use a tool like that to become 'more' than they truly are?

May the Force guide this discussion.

I think this happens with people subconsciously most of the time (unintentionally even), and in the most subtle of ways. When we use an idea or a symbol to try to wrap our own ego identities around as a tool to prop our own sense of self-worth on, we get a lot of what happens here at the the temple. It mostly happens when someone just hasn't yet learned what they are doing or have already been buried in their own ego for so long that they are convinced the mask really is who they are. It's a pathological phenomenon much of the time.

When someone does know what is going on and knows how to differentiate their real selves from the mask, it then boils down to what their intentions are with the mask, and if they know what they are doing with those intentions. I don't believe that people do know what they are doing with it most of the time, and this is indicated by things like (but not limited to) their verbal demeanor, their ability to articulate ideas, and not just any ideas but ideas that are constructive, consistent, and considerate of context.

I think everyone plays a character of one sort or another though whether they realise or not. This is just a matter of their own culture of identity (are you old fashioned? Zen-like? Militaristic? Crude? Blunt? Spiritual? Practical? Logical? Etc) And I think every "character" is necessary. I'm not one to pin the judgements of good or bad on any of them, at least not generally, but if anything, only in the context of what the character is trying to accomplish (is it going to be effective in said context?)

I don't believe anyone heres at this temple should judge one another's character outside of that criteria if at all. I think it would be more beneficial to learn how to understand each character as a clue to understanding our own and in turn our own true selves responsible for creating it.

We all have characters we play (or at least the grand majority of us, if we want to stay employed)


As far as it goes for "celebrities" -

A. Who cares?
B. If you're the sort of person who cares, you probably caused it anyway. You always wanted to know more about their personal lives, you wanted to know if being a good comedian, or musician, or actor, also meant they were "better" as people, or if they sat on the couch in old undies eating crisps out of the pack like the rest of us. You didn't give them a choice but to create larger-than-life personas (good or ill) to play on the red carpet, for magazines, etc etc. (Having said that, the ones that care enough to be dancing monkeys for you are the ones that want to be talked about, for any reason at all - opposite to that, we "shame" the otherwise peaceful and quiet ones into "speaking up" and having opinions on things (then we crucify them for having ones we disagree with)

It's schoolyard nonsense, just on a bigger scale, and with more dollars involved.

If nothing else, give credit to the ones that can be bothered trying to take control of the stupid game. (as far as I can tell, it's more prevalent in the music industry than other...fame based thingys, presumably because the music industry is populated with ego driven hacks, who are more often that not selling a culture or brand than they are noise that people actually want to listen to)



(The character I play at this Temple swears a lot less than the one I play at work, because y'all rules are different. It's got nothing to do with courtesy, I think the rule is inane, but if I want to play......)

I’m a MTV generation type of Nintendo player WWF type of child growing up. Truth be told. I sat in front of my very own 9” box every chance I got to watch my shows - like TGIF and Saturday morning cartoons! Yea ! As I grew up I lost time to stayed glued to my “boob.” This culture now that is emerging is baffling to me. I stopped watching TV - flat out. My focus began to turn to my family and my focus began to change. I couldn’t be more glad. I think - I know - I study - I read therefore - I am. When people ask me have I seen such and such show - I gladly say I have no idea what your talking about with a smile.
This doesn’t mean I’m nieve.

I can’t fix or even try to attempt to make a drastic change in the world. Not my cup of tea. I can talk to by little brother - who , the more we speak , is noticing there’s a glitch in the matrix so to speak. I know that this exist. This circus and need for ratings. It’s my opinion if you boil it down - it’s alleays about money and greed. These people
do these things - speak this way and act as such for a pay check. Most of it is what some call fake. Is entertainment fake ? Is fiction fake or a lie? What we do with this - how we apply these things is the biggest thought a human can do. I know when I turn the TV on -
Most of what’s displayed is gunna be a pitch a lie or a promotion -
So why do I keep turning it on? Why do I allow this to continue in my life and effect my children?
These are questions each of us have to answer for ourselfs.
I have dvds. Lots of them. All my own programming and all my own choice. So... yea , it exist. I take very little part in it . I encourage others to do the same. I read that people got ptsd from presidential debates. From watching TV. Yea - it’s real and we do it ... to ourselfs.
My own philosophies state - let the nations rage and plot and scheme. I will do none. Honestly, thanks for the video , I’ll watch this again with the wifey!
Things and conclusion s like his make me glad I make my own choices. I still admire Dwayne Johnson ... but I know that’s just a persona... one I often jokingly say —- can u smell it .... still to this day!

Now, flipside time!

Is Kayfabe bad when it comes to personal development? By this, I mean does the creation of this persona, a mask (and ideal version of yourself) mean your type of self development is inherently bad?

For example, deciding to go full kayfabe and don the persona of someone that deserves better than their own ego has allowed them to seize until then? Essentially, method acting one way towards self development until they cease to be the person they were before, and wearing that mask until they are strong enough to remove it and be who they always wanted to be.

Now, of course this would involve recognising it is a mask, and understanding the implications of becoming someone else. You'll lose friends, followers, perhaps alienating family, all in the pursuit of who you want to and deserve to be. It also will attract enemies (as any video game has taught me, if you go a while without encountering enemies trying to stop you from going forward, you're prolly going the wrong way), so one must be ready for that eventuality and steel themselves for it.

So, thoughts? Can Kayfabe be positive, or is it only a negative thing (as outlined in the video, they make it seem pretty sinister at its core).

Positive, nah. They make a distinction between the suspension of disbelief (which is what theatre tries to create) and 'kayfabe' (which is what liars try to pitch). I prefer truth.

I think the concept is explained more as the being kayfabed, rather then being kayfabe... because IMO the later is just lying. In effect I think the vid was talking about the consumer of it.

So I think it is still a type of 'suspension of disbelief' for the consumer of it; a willingness to suspend one's critical faculties and believe something surreal; sacrifice of realism and logic for the sake of enjoyment. Just taken to a point where it gets integrated into their narrative self and dependent on the external source.

As I tend to define nature as the interaction of essence and environment, then distraction with nature probably boils down to seeking entertainment, ie a 'better' state of experience, had for longer - how ever one chooses to define it. Feeling 'better natured'.

Which is also the goal of things like movies and computer games (especially VR) when used as entertainment, but its when its dragged out and 'worn' as social identity it can become a problem IMO, as its being defined for us rather then by us.

Plus its a massive waste of time really. Entertainment is good, but like any distortion of reality it is a separation from it - which suits the dealers of celebrity and conspiracy because it makes us more rushed, and thus needing more distraction from reality Sure.... it might be FUN, but we probably assume we have a grasp on priorities when we don't; and are really actually putting too much importance on feeling happy, not hungry, not cold, not hot, etc etc entertain me or get out of my way.

So in something like a path related to fiction, I think it needs to be done systematically, to reinforce effective elements, redefine weak ones, and ignore ineffective ones. This means engagement, exploration but also application and transformation of the concepts in action. All about focus against information to derive knowledge, and then orientate it to allow wisdom.

To me personally that is my connection to the (concept of, or actual) Force; an essence. And done (in part) by viewing environment as also intrinsically of my essence; rather then just essential to my existence. The later promotes objectification in terms of self and elevation of self and an in-group out-group dynamic. The summation of all that is, instead of grasping at labels like consumerism, conspiracy and celebrity; the effort of a path tends to be aligning with actions... which is a bit Daoistic (but not devoid of self either as difference exists as defined by actual characteristics of existence, like design and behaviour etc).

But we do all like to be distracted from self at times, probably just because most all of us cannot have control enough of our circumstance to think we don't need to be distracted.
The two popular ones seem to be celebrity and conspiracy. Where pop (popular) culture and politics play to those respectively, being profit and power traditionally.... but with the democratic mechanism of politics it is prone to popularity and profit having massive overlap and potential dependency, not to suggest its not the best political system rather nothing is without vulnerability.

And that overlap is a problem because I think it can erode how those two distractions best sit with us and our individual freedoms in a fair and equitable civilization. When we all spend all our time becoming proficient in the language of celebrity and conspiracy (by following and focusing on it) we are in effect letting them shape our experience of life.

But taking it back to the root of it, needing distraction is probably normal - it seems clear that we still (could,should,can) retain the capacity to choose what we focus and follow as much as possible. That can be blurred though, through factors in 'social identity theory' for example, which is a good way to spot a cult or nefarious group or people - when those mechanisms are over played. As topical groups of like minded folk can enable the immersion into that suspension of disbelief beyond what one might engage on their own. The brain seems to shape itself to reinforce whatever we focus on, and so consumerism, conspiracy and celebrity might all really try to play into peoples existence by something called the theory of narrative identity; integrating their life experiences into an internalized, evolving story of the self that provides the individual with a sense of unity and purpose in life. Probably something corporations and military forces do to achieve consistency in its workforces, and to a lesser extent governments to citizens with nationalism. But those things are usually things we need to do, and so if the rest of our time is also an externally shaped narrative then it seems quite disconnected from the self... almost an anti-self path, and effectively choosing to be part of a crowd with no self identity, rather then an individual of self identity. The former might be considered a safe space in some regards because it dilutes personal responsibility or elevates a sensation of power above what might be accessible as an individual - but at what cost.

Arisaig wrote: For example, deciding to go full kayfabe and don the persona of someone that deserves better than their own ego has allowed them to seize until then? Essentially, method acting one way towards self development until they cease to be the person they were before, and wearing that mask until they are strong enough to remove it and be who they always wanted to be.

Now, of course this would involve recognising it is a mask, and understanding the implications of becoming someone else. You'll lose friends, followers, perhaps alienating family, all in the pursuit of who you want to and deserve to be. It also will attract enemies (as any video game has taught me, if you go a while without encountering enemies trying to stop you from going forward, you're prolly going the wrong way), so one must be ready for that eventuality and steel themselves for it.

So, thoughts? Can Kayfabe be positive, or is it only a negative thing (as outlined in the video, they make it seem pretty sinister at its core).

You just described Carlos. :laugh:

... And King Ezekiel. I enjoy them both.

@Manu...I see what you did there hahahaha

Here’s my question- the All Myth ( the idea all myths are for edification of any person) the idea of the righteousness of a God or gods can be felt and learned by daily communing with the teachings - the daily practice of systematic repetitive behavior can lead to a new form - is pretty much the mask most wear. How else can we apply with out actual application.? How
Does one master the sword without touching it? How does one master speech without reading and finding new words? How can we learn to love better if we can’t give it away and even know what it looks like. ?
I’ve heard the search for virtue called many things - Kayfabe is the most recent.
Is sitting with a old Timer , learning how they do things and acting like them -Kayfabe? Or learning from saints what they pass - Kayfabe? Is dancing for the first time with the spirit of Kevin Bacon - Kayfabe? Or is remembering your ancestors before you and hearing them in the wind when it blows which gives you strength -Kayfabe ? Is applying every Myth , any myth to ones life-true or false fiction or real-Kayfabe?
There may be those who think so. There may be those who don’t. There are so many ways to call things - labels.
Do our labels keep or do they give ? Do they hinder or free. ? Those are those million dolla questions for me.
Does it free me or keep me. Just my
two cents but I do like the questions - for me they are questions that each of us should ask. Why? So we can define them for ourselfs and figure out what helps and what harms. Force be with y’all!
Love u Manu!

Hm.... Try this on for size.

https://youtu.be/I_7hCPYgXEk