Self Control

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: @ adder

More damage than good? How do you define either of those standards? What gives you the right to define anything as damaging or not?

That is the point, they cannot be defined. That does not mean giving up.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: You consider these "deeper levels" as being defined in apprentisship but it is one that affords only a narrowly defined set of paramaters in a dogmatic doctrine that has never been proven to have any more merit to the human condition than any other.

No it doesn't, and you know it. Apprenticeship content is up to the individual Training Master/Mentor... and in your circumstance you did not meet the minimum required content amount so Council did have a look at assign some more work so you could meet that minimum. Why... because your TM/Mentor asked Council for suggestions.

That is not being dogmatic, that is trying to help you reach the lowest step to get on board.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: In fact it is free expression that has been shown to rule the day in every aspect of life. Fascist regimes and limiting religions and socialist paradigms cause the masses to stagnate and die. Free economies and individual expression alone produces growth and greater life!

Probably something I agree with, but I feel its important to point out it has no bearing on what we're discussing.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: I have walked your sounding chamber of apprentisship and found the process lacking because of people far removed from the capability of their charge. It is a broken system of control as any system is that tries to steer a narrow path under the promise of freedom.

It's evolving, always being discussed how to improved etc, but you'd have to take that up with Edu Admin. Your case was certainly..... unique though. Most people don't have an issue with what is a quite simple system by my experiences of system. I guess for some people any system is 'foreign' because its not exactly what they want, how they want it, when they want it.

But my comments were on what the system can be, has been, usually is, and could be better.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: I would only hope that those few that break your yoke of conformity realise the next yoke presented is a false promise and that freedom reigns in their taking extreme self responsibility for their own wellbeing.

No-one is forcing anyone to participate in what is a simple, open and cooperative working process. As mentioned, an Apprenticeship content is unique to that Apprenticeship as run by the TM/Mentor. It is only in the unusual circumstances of a failed Apprenticeship that anyone outside of that relationship might involve themselves in the content of an Apprenticeship - so your whole ramble about dogmatism and conformity is a dog and pony show to put it bluntly.

Heck, not only that ^^ but what sort of dogmatic system lets a person even create their own lessons for their own program!! None, its the exact opposite of dogmatic.

I mean, in theory a Knight here could build their own 'Sith' themed program so long as it didn't go outside the doctrine.... which is the only real limit. And if you've ever read the doctrine you'd know its real loose and broad, by design.

As I said in a TS channel about the IP recently, on how I viewed the IP as being not about believing or agreeing with the content but rather as a broad range of topics (which might appeal to people arriving here) to exercise 'doctrinal interpretation' with;

"to me its the difference between dogma and doctrine; dogma being about belief and doctrine being about action. Different definitions exist, but its how I see TOTJO being doctrinal rather then dogmatic and as such training is about employing doctrinal principles rather then building a body of belief to explain."

The Jedi path is one of the Force in all parts of ones life, and pragmatism therefore is inherent because no one person can control and dictate every part of their existence. The individual can be so much more capable when part of a team, but that does mean giving up some self authority in some areas - the important thing is that they get to choose what that is. Oppression and fascism does not let the person choose that, and instead forces them into a mould without consideration - which is why as mentioned in the earlier post, its better for the broader Temple to be constructive yet supportive, and minimize the 'guided' work to managed programs (themselves as programs as open as possible).

Self Controll and Self Responsibility I think on this goes hand in hand. We all understand many people come from different types of learning and study possibilities. This place is self paced so ( personally) I see it really hard to blame some one or something for me not learning ... something. I don’t blame my teachers though I used to , and I’ve actually grown when I realized - it was all me. Same for the internal things but for me - if I keep blaming others I’ll never move forward. Here some people flourish others have a harder time while still some learn it’s not for them. Why waist time always fighting when you can grow some where else? Some just want to fight and some just want to grow and still others fight to grow. I guess it depends on the individual.

To your point Carlos in a martial arts metaphor (I watch to many kung fu movies.....).

I got into martial arts as a part of being in shape, improving the body for my AP (even though it was something I was always interested in just never took formal classes, beyond self defense training for a job I held but I digress). I found I like competing and man I will tell ya I love a good match. The fight is a fantastic few moments but the fight doesn't keep me in shape. It's the time I spend practicing the fight in slow motion, the times learning the forms, the activity that is pretty much the exact opposite of the match that does.

When I screw up at a test or just in class it isn't the master's fault, he showed me what to do and he will correct me when I screw up but the majority of errors I make in class and in matches come from me not practicing outside the Dojang what I am learning in it. Honestly the amount of time I spend each day practicing, even 10 mins of forms practice, significantly increases my performance at all levels in the Dojang and in the ring(when the time comes). Particularly in areas where I learn slowly or have trouble with, forms are a weak point for me, the new combos for sparring by level come very easy as do breaks.

TOTJO is like the Dojang, in that the parts I am not good at when I am on here don't get any better if I don't practice them outside this place and that effects my over all shape. The person and focus I have here needs to be the person and focus I have on the outside or it is all that training only becomes for competitions sake, and I fall out of physical shape.

Self Responsibility to stay in shape, practice my forms, work to progress. Self control knowing when I am not and why and changing it.

Much rambling on my part but meh....

Much Love, Respect and Peace,
Kobos

@kobos - I never blame my Muk Yan Jong for the hurt or my failures. Some do - but how foolish one looks talking and yelling to a dummy. Smiley face !

Ok....sometimes I do straight up blame the floor when I land badly.............stupid foam pad doesn't help pivoting

The bag I don't blame though!

@Adder

umm.. I think you have gotten waaay off my original point. I am not discussing my apprenticeship in any sort of way so I don't want to discuss my case. I have far exceeded the minimum points at this juncture and was still denied. So what. I did design a sith like path and was denied. So what again. That's not my point. My point is that any system where the individual puts themselves under the mentor-ship of another that is limited in any way by doctrine becomes a dogmatic system of control. But once again I digress...

The fact that no one is forcing anyone is also irrelevant. Its about coercion and enticement in the subtlest forms. that is the devil in the detail. We are social species and we want to belong and fit in. Systems like this one entice people with rank and acceptance in order to get them to conform to a way of thinking. They feel like they have to agree or they will be shunned. That is the point. Same goes for psychometry, which was my original point. A person comes along and says, I have this secret power and I am making it stronger. People want in on that secret and they want that special power so they can think themselves as special as well. So they forego logic and instead of investigating the validity of the claim they assume the claim is valid and start down a path of self induced slavery by giving the claimant undue power over them.

... and I'm a space warlock, nice to meet you

I only mentioned your Apprenticeship because you referenced it.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: ..... That's not my point. My point is that any system where the individual puts themselves under the mentor-ship of another that is limited in any way by doctrine becomes a dogmatic system of control. But once again I digress...

Yea nah that is exactly what I was talking to, just disagreeing with explanations.