Psychometry

JLSpinner wrote: Kyrin, you have always stood firm that those making the claims carry the burden of proof. You asked me a question that I admitted that I was guessing an answer because it is subjective. You agreed it’s subjective. However, you have claimed that “dependence on belief or faith that cannot be mapped to reality causes projection, misogyny, bigotry, and violence.” This was just before you equated Psychometry to racism. So let’s take a moment here. You claimed these things and yet, I am still responsible for the burden of proof? I don’t think so. You brought racism in as a strawman. You want these beliefs to be seen as something shameful and bad. So you tied it into racism, with no evidence that they are even correlated. Then you have something that is actually bad to argue against and you tried to get out of providing proof. That’s odd because you also said “Yes I can actually prove everything I believe, Knight. I don’t believe things I can’t back up.” So again, I don’t have to touch that. You have to prove those claims.
You also said that you would think any Jedi would want to “eradicate” these thoughts because Psychometry is the same as racism if not for the reason to find the struggle for freedom in discovering our own self purpose outside the need for external validation. I’d be really interested to know which part of our doctrine tells us to “eradicate” thoughts we don’t agree with. I thought our goal was syncretism. Also does it make sense to force others, using outside influence, with the claim you are helping them against outside influence?
I understand that you are a skeptic, and that is awesome. But let me ask a question from your quote about about belief or faith that cannot be mapped to reality. What faith can be mapped to reality?

In regards to Pyschic scams, your point isn't valid. Just because there are unethical people using the esoteric doesn't prove the esoteric is bad. Just like the fact that some cops are corrupt doesn't mean that all cops are bad. This becomes an argument over subjective ethics and morals. Pyschometry is not ethical or unethical, people are.

I never related psychometry to racism. I equated false belief to the possibility of leading to racism, just as I have done with the other things I mentioned. This does not make it a strawman but a statement supported by actual fact. I have proven those claims – that claim being that false belief can lead to those things, when I talked about Nazis. If you want further, I can cite the Christian crusades, Christians hunting witches, Muslims flying planes into buildings, the Muslim treatment of their women as second class citizens, the killing of gays. The list can go on and on.

Once again, I never said psychometry is the same as racism. You are putting words in my mouth and that is actually a Straw man argument so it is you that is guilty of this. I have also never said your doctrine says to eradicate thoughts you don’t agree with, however your doctrine does say to ease suffering where you find it, does it not?

No faith can be mapped to reality because faith is an unreliable means to discern truth. Using faith you can arrive at any conclusion and never know if it maps to reality or not so it is disingenuous to use as a tool, especially when trying to convince others of your claims. I have also never claimed the esoteric is good or bad. And I am not claiming that anything is ethical or unethical. Im claiming that charlatans are using such things for unethical profit by preying on gullibility and faith. They are making claims that there is no evidence for and in particular cases actual evidence against. This is a position that Jedi should be against because the practice is causing suffering that is unnecessary and therefore not accept the practice without valid proof of its existence.

Adder wrote:
So given a proper reading of my statement, perhaps consider try answering those questions I asked you again (since the 'scientific method' is not an answer when the scientific method is not applicable)... or not.

Its been a while, exactly what questions again?

JamesSand wrote: In any case, I was mostly responding to positions Kyrin had taken, which I felt were pretty hollow undermining attempts, wrapped in tinfoil armor of "but science!" to control a conversation, demean any position not their own, and contribute as little or less to the general discussion as a mosquito in an outhouse.

Being a skeptic is fine, once you've established your own skepticism, you don't really need to be an pest until everyone agrees with you (unless Jiddajuddujedism or whatever is practiced by the various members here has taken more ideas from the Jehovah's Witness MO than I expected)


I'm not taking a Pro-Data or a Pro-Woo position here, I'm trying for "Stop being assholes and trying to be the smartest sausage meat in the packet"

Another fan of the infamous Kyrin it seems! Ill give you an "A" for your very colorful use of metaphor! Mosquitoes are small to be sure but when one bites you on the ass and you have to deal with the reality of the itch I can guarantee that is a truth in reality you cannot ignore. Try using faith to make it go away... nah, it will take salve. Just dont buy that salve from a snake oil salesman claiming to have the cure all elixer of the Gods sent to him from on High. It wont work my friend and you will be out 10 bucks and still have that itchy ass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MY7xkPqW0G8

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

JamesSand wrote: In any case, I was mostly responding to positions Kyrin had taken, which I felt were pretty hollow undermining attempts, wrapped in tinfoil armor of "but science!" to control a conversation, demean any position not their own, and contribute as little or less to the general discussion as a mosquito in an outhouse.

Being a skeptic is fine, once you've established your own skepticism, you don't really need to be an pest until everyone agrees with you (unless Jiddajuddujedism or whatever is practiced by the various members here has taken more ideas from the Jehovah's Witness MO than I expected)


I'm not taking a Pro-Data or a Pro-Woo position here, I'm trying for "Stop being assholes and trying to be the smartest sausage meat in the packet"

Another fan of the infamous Kyrin it seems! Ill give you an "A" for your very colorful use of metaphor! Mosquitoes are small to be sure but when one bites you on the ass and you have to deal with the reality of the itch I can guarantee that is a truth in reality you cannot ignore. Try using faith to make it go away... nah, it will take salve. Just dont buy that salve from a snake oil salesman claiming to have the cure all elixer of the Gods sent to him from on High. It wont work my friend and you will be out 10 bucks and still have that itchy ass.

True, but then again I don't trust anyone I can't look directly in the eye to begin with, especially those that go out of their way to resist talking with me face to face. Another instance where "faith" doesn't always work, always need to be on guard for those types, the catfish are everywhere...

JamesSand wrote: ... [we have] some people who are saying [psychometry] is so obviously not even wrong it's not worth discussing (however many pages of discussion to the contrary) ...

And who are they, pray tell. Can you name one? Here, let me remind you what this is actually about, so you don't have to carry on lying like this:

JamesSand wrote:

It causes fallacy, cognitive bias, projection, misogyny, bigotry and violence.

you mean the Six Virtues? (in some dusty tomes referred to as the "Six Harsh Realities: )

Jedi creeds etc aside, can you prove this things all objectively bad?

That is the proof you asked about. This is the discussion I was saying wasn't worth it. If someone subjectively sincerely doesn't think that bigotry and violence, and generally poor reasoning are bad, there isn't much reasoning I can offer to change their mind, and frankly, I'm not entirely convinced it's not beneath me to even try. Noone can prove any non-analytic statement objectively as I'm sure was your entire point. I was responding to the implicit assertion that this inherent subjectivity in almost all matters of pragmatic relevance was in any way a problem for the healthy opposition to self-deception as a means to acquire convictions in virtue of the consequences not being provably "objectively bad". I'll assume, for now, that you just forgot what we were talking about, James, and are not purposely painting it like I said or implied that this entire thread wasn't worth having.

Zenchi wrote: True, but then again I don't trust anyone I can't look directly in the eye to begin with, especially those that go out of their way to resist talking with me face to face. Another instance where "faith" doesn't always work, always need to be on guard for those types, the catfish are everywhere...

This is just driving you absolutely mad isn't it. I have become that very itch you cant scratch. I would say I find a sick pleasure it in but its not really true because I don't care enough to even give it a second thought. I wonder what would you and I even talk about? I dare say that given your ongoing OCD temper tantrum insisting we dialogue, it would not end well for you. A face to face encounter with me would end only in your reduction to tears. Better to just leave it here.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Zenchi wrote: True, but then again I don't trust anyone I can't look directly in the eye to begin with, especially those that go out of their way to resist talking with me face to face. Another instance where "faith" doesn't always work, always need to be on guard for those types, the catfish are everywhere...

This is just driving you absolutely mad isn't it. I have become that very itch you cant scratch. I would say I find a sick pleasure it in but its not really true because I don't care enough to even give it a second thought. I wonder what would you and I even talk about? I dare say that given your ongoing OCD temper tantrum insisting we dialogue, it would not end well for you. A face to face encounter with me would end only in your reduction to tears. Better to just leave it here.

Zenchi in tears? Is love to see that. I'm free this weekend, wanna do a skype call?

Arisaig wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Zenchi wrote: True, but then again I don't trust anyone I can't look directly in the eye to begin with, especially those that go out of their way to resist talking with me face to face. Another instance where "faith" doesn't always work, always need to be on guard for those types, the catfish are everywhere...

This is just driving you absolutely mad isn't it. I have become that very itch you cant scratch. I would say I find a sick pleasure it in but its not really true because I don't care enough to even give it a second thought. I wonder what would you and I even talk about? I dare say that given your ongoing OCD temper tantrum insisting we dialogue, it would not end well for you. A face to face encounter with me would end only in your reduction to tears. Better to just leave it here.

Zenchi in tears? Is love to see that. I'm free this weekend, wanna do a skype call?

Nope

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: We talk of the false belief in psychometry here but what about the false belief that black people are not fully human that Nazis believe?

I think it's fair to say I'm not putting words in your mouth, but I'll concede under the notion that you misspoke. But, the weird part is, I reread this entire conversation and found nothing to prove what I asked for.
I didn't say you said anything about the doctrine. You said that you believed that any Jedi should support the eradication of such thoughts. Since we try to live our doctrine and this would be an inherently supported thought, the natural conclusion would be that it was based on our core beliefs, our doctrine. If that's not true, where do you make your point from? What compels that assumption?
So no faith can be mapped to reality, in your opinion. And also in your opinion all of these are false beliefs. And also in your opinion we should reject them like we do racist nazis.
Okay.