Zhuan Falun (Turning The Law Wheel)

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07 Apr 2019 09:19 - 07 Apr 2019 09:22 #336964 by EnergyGem
Hi all,

I'm a new member here, looks like a friendly place. :)

I have something to share with the Temple of the Jedi Order community that I think they will find of great interest.

I've come across a fascinating book that talks about high level spiritual things from a scientific perspective. This book is intriguing as it talks about many similar things to what people in mystical states mention such as seeing into parallel dimensions and interacting with beings from other worlds etc.

This book is called Zhuan Falun and it is from the Buddha Law School of Cultivation however it is not Buddhism the religion or Daoism the religion, it's something more profound. It seems to me to be more of a spiritual science as many of the terms and concepts in the book are talked about in a scientific down to earth manner instead of flowery mystical prose which I found very refreshing.

Now here is where it gets interesting, this book talks about the following things:

● Other Dimensions - Levels Of Dimensions spanning into the microcosm and also outwards into the macrocosm

● The Soul - It talks about people having a Master soul and a subordinate soul which is hidden from you but is at a more advanced level then you, it states some people have more then one Subordinate soul and some are of not of the same sex as you i.e males having a female subordinate soul etc.

● Microcosmic worlds - This concept was very far out but it talks about there being worlds within you, countless worlds. Similar to our world with life , water, animals etc. An analogy is zooming an an atom within one of your cells and realizing at that level of magnification it is just like our solar system. Then zooming into a single particle in that world and finding out it too is a vast world, apparently the level it can go onwards like this is beyond imagination.

● Supernatural Abilities - In the book they mention that everyone has them it is just that they have atrophied. It goes into depth about this topic. Some abilities that are mentioned are precognition, retrocognition and remote vision.

● The 3rd Eye - Talks about how at the front part of our pineal gland there is a complete structure of an eye there. Modern science calls it a vestigial eye but in the cultivation world they say this eye just naturally exists like that and it can be activated allowing one to pierce through this dimension and see other dimensions. It talks about how there are many levels to this 3rd eye and it goes into great depth about it.

● Thoughts - This part was amazing. It talks about how a human brain is just a processing plant. How the real you is actually your soul, it's like your whole body and brain is just a vehicle and that the true commands are issued by your master soul, but this master soul is very tiny and it can switch positions while inside you and it can also expand and shrink. It can move from your brain to your heart and to other parts of your body and it is 'he' who calls the shots. Your brain is just the factory which your master soul sends his cosmic commands to which then create the forms of expression and communication we use such as speech, gestures, etc.

These are just a few things that are covered but there are many many other things which blew my mind when I read it because of how it resonated with some of the mystical experiences people sometimes have, especially the multidimensional nature of reality and how all of them are hidden in our day to day perceptions of the world.

If this sounds interesting to anyone you can grab a copy of the book here:

falundafa.org/eng/eng/pdf/Zhuan-Falun-2018.pdf

True.Good.Endure
Last edit: 07 Apr 2019 09:22 by EnergyGem.

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07 Apr 2019 14:10 #336967 by Gisteron
My ISP returned a warning about the link being possibly not safe, but it did so with nature.com as well the other day, so I'm mentioning it as a word of caution, but assume a false positive for the sake of charity.

At any rate, before I spend my precious time reading what appears to be yet another woo book, since you registered to share it with us I assume you have read it and thought enough about it to deem it interesting to strangers. Welcome, by the way. I'm Gisteron. I prefer speaking to people who are here to speak back than listen or talk to those who are not. What is your take on any of these topics? Why do you think they are important, or interesting, or deal with aspects of the real world?

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08 Apr 2019 04:42 #336975 by EnergyGem
Hi Gisteron,

I can assure you the link is legitimate and doesn't lead to anything nefarious. I have shared this book with others across the web and not a single person mentioned anything about the link being unsafe.

It's actually a link from the main website of falun dafa which you can find here:

www.falundafa.org

Falun Dafa is a high level Qi Gong practice that goes above and beyond just healing and fitness things. It's a high level cultivation system that is very righteous and powerful and that leads to great transformations in a person.

Although healing and fitness are not it's main aim the practice does lead to greatly improved health and well being which has been written about in a book that was published a few years ago:

en.minghui.org/html/articles/2005/4/3/59184.html

The core tenets of the practice are Truthfulness, Compassion and Forebearance. Abiding by these precepts in day to day life and also doing a set of 5 powerful Qi Gong exercises allows one to harness a powerful energy from the universe that leads one to awaken their inner wisdom and open up one's supernatural abilities.

The whole world actually supports Falun Dafa, the only country that is still suppressing and persecuting it is the Chinese Communist regime:

"By April 2001, Li Hongzhi had received over 340 awards and proclamations from Australia, Canada, China (before crackdown), Japan, Russia, and the U.S. in recognition of the contributions to people's spiritual and physical health, and to freedom of belief in the world.

These include certificates of recognition from several governmental bodies in the United States – including Honorary Citizenship awarded by The State of Georgia and city of Atlanta. On 14 March 2001, The Freedom House bestowed Li Hongzhi and Falun Gong with an International Religious Freedom Award for the advancement of religious and spiritual freedom at a ceremony in the United States Senate.

In the same year, Li was ranked the most powerful communicator in Asia by Asiaweek magazine "for his power to inspire, to mobilize people and to spook Beijing". He was nominated for the 2001 Sakharov Prize by over 25 members of European Parliament, was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize in 2000 and 2001, and in 2013 was ranked by Foreign Policy Magazine as one of the 500 most powerful people in the world."

From: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Hongzhi#Life_abroad


The practice has also been tested under scientific conditions, here are some of the findings:

www.pureinsight.org/node/189


If you have any other questions regarding the book or this cultivation system feel free to ask. :)

True.Good.Endure

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08 Apr 2019 07:16 - 08 Apr 2019 07:16 #336978 by Gisteron

EnergyGem wrote: The practice has also been tested under scientific conditions, here are some of the findings:

[link]

This is a poorly typeset direct copy from the article here , which in turn is itself a translation of the original publication here , which I had to track down just to find otherwise entirely missing figures, that happen to also have chinese labeling. I call it publication in the spirit of charity, also. There seems to be no independent journal that published it, no indication that it underwent any kind of peer review, and no information about how to contact the author who it seems has a name common enough where multiple scientists in entirely different fields can be found by it. For some reason the article has an appendage with author information. It tries to vaguely establish their credentials: They graduated with degrees "from China" and "from Japan" and further trained through "medical schools in the United States". Though he has research associates, none of them are mentioned and none of them co-authored the article, despite having assisted the author in designing the experiment at "the medical school's laboratory" that also remains unnamed. Though most of the references appear fair, the first two are to Mr. Li's books, and the third is to the very website the article itself was published on. There is no information about whether the article was cited by any further researchers in the field since its publication in 2001, nor that there was any follow-up on it from the author and his team at "the medical school's laboratory".

Is any of the information lacking about this article available to you? While none of this scrutiny outright discredits the contents of the publication, I am unqualified to assess their legitimacy and must thus instead rely on the stability of the scientific enterprise to ensure that it is information I can trust. However, for that purpose I do need to understand whether or not this is indeed a scientific publication that has passed peer review and is being treated as a resource further studies can reference. So far, I have no reason to believe that this is so.


If you have any other questions regarding the book or this cultivation system feel free to ask. :)

Thank you. I don't. I didn't have any earlier either. I asked what your take was on the list of topics you composed, not for the core tenets of the religious framework you come from when discussing them (if you are at all going to), nor the personal accolades of your prophet.

Last edit: 08 Apr 2019 07:16 by Gisteron.

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08 Apr 2019 09:01 #336979 by EnergyGem
The test in question shows that meditation energy truly exists and that it has a tangible effect in the material world. It also has controls to show that non-falun dafa practitioners did not emit such energy and had no effect on the rat cells.

All the references are at the bottom of the experiment.

The fact that the scientific experiments referenced Falun Dafa books shouldn't be of concern. Isaac Newtown was a devout Christian and yet his contributions to scientific knowledge have been quite substantial. He was an avid reader of the Bible and was also a very accomplished scientist. One's beliefs do not undermine one's scientific accomplishments.

Peer review is useful but something that has not been peer reviewed yet does not mean it is not scientific. Peer review started in 1665, are we to say all scientific discoveries before that time are not scientific?

Many scientific discoveries and accomplishments have been made prior to Peer Review stretching far into the past to the time of Pythagoras and other great Minds of ancient Greece.

Also peer review is not perfect and has had issues in the past:

www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/...m_term=.b75cc60fdbd5


Although it's still in the early stages of being researched there have been some other scientific tests that has been performed on Falun Dafa practitioners:

escholarship.org/uc/item/4899m047

"In addition, genomic profiling of neutrophil transcripts in Falun Gong Qigong practitioners showed enhanced immunity, downregulation of cellular metabolism, and alteration of apoptotic genes in favor of a rapid resolution of inflammation"

An excerpt from: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4010966/


This was a large scale survey done on Falun Dafa practitioners around the world and the major health benefits are outlined:

www.pureinsight.org/node/6628


The ancient cultivation techniques unlocked and harnessed the human brain ( the most enigmatic and complex instrument in the known universe) to delve into the mysteries of life and existence from a deeper and more comprehensive perspective then modern science.

Although our current science has certainly made commendable accomplishments into understanding the world around us, there are other ways to look into the mysteries of life and existence.

Ancient cultivation techniques unlocked the power of the mind ( which is to date the most complex instrument in existence) using various methodologies to peer deeper and further then our current science can

Gisteron I recommend checking this out, it compares our current scientific paradigm to Buddha Law:

en.falundafa.org/eng/html/zfl2/zfl2.htm#8

True.Good.Endure

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08 Apr 2019 10:29 - 08 Apr 2019 10:37 #336981 by Gisteron

EnergyGem wrote: The fact that the scientific experiments referenced Falun Dafa books shouldn't be of concern. Isaac Newtown was a devout Christian and yet his contributions to scientific knowledge have been quite substantial. He was an avid reader of the Bible and was also a very accomplished scientist. One's beliefs do not undermine one's scientific accomplishments.

Agreed. Newton didn't explicitly state that the purpose of his work was to win converts to his faith, but that, too, wouldn't do anything to damage its merits. The problem I have is that unlike with Newton, whose work I am qualified to review myself, I am not qualified to review Mr. Liu's, so I'm asking if anyone who is has.


Peer review is useful but something that has not been peer reviewed yet does not mean it is not scientific. Peer review started in 1665, are we to say all scientific discoveries before that time are not scientific?

Many scientific discoveries and accomplishments have been made prior to Peer Review [sic] stretching far into the past to the time of Pythagoras and other great Minds [sic] of ancient Greece.

It costs me nothing at all to say that their work was unscientific. In fact, quite a lot of ancient Greek natural philosophy is far less scientific than even the description of that experiment from the article you linked. At the end of the day, if one doesn't have the qualifications to evaluate whether a work is scientific or not, one is stuck relying on the reviews of those who do (i.e. a review by the author's peers). I don't think you would be questioning the importance of peer review if you had any reason to think that the article you linked underwent any.


Also peer review is not perfect and has had issues in the past:

[link]

Yes, you are right, knowing the history of far eastern expert rings faking names and reviews, even on articles that did undergo peer review one should remain ever skeptical. What's your point?


Although it's still in the early stages of being researched...

Excuse me, the other article you linked was from 2001! How is this "in early stages"? The practice hasn't been around for as long as a decade by that time and it has been almost two decades since! Just what pace do you think medical research is progressing at if this is "early stage" still?

... there have been some other scientific tests that has been performed on Falun Dafa practitioners:

[link]

Yes, apparently. This is a dissertation which tend to be reviewed by supervisors rather than independent colleagues, but at least here we have some names and dates to work with. However, it is about the internal effects of the practice on practitioners' brains, moods, and health, which is frankly expected with and without parallel worlds or souls. It's not like the other article that is about beaming "energy" out of one's hands to a remote sample... sort of like magic.


Gisteron I recommend checking this out, it compares our current scientific paradigm to Buddha Law:

[link]

Do you have anything to say about the topics you brought up or no? I really don't care what you recommend me to check out if you yourself have nothing of substance to say on the subject, because I can't talk to the book, I can only talk to people. The chapter you linked here contains lies about how science operates and what inquiries it allegedly wouldn't permit in general, and about Einstein in particular. I have no interest in responding to the book, though, because the book is not a person. You are. If you have nothing to say, then we have nothing to talk about.

Last edit: 08 Apr 2019 10:37 by Gisteron.

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08 Apr 2019 11:55 #336983 by Adder
Would you consider the Wikipedia page to be a good representation of it?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong

I'm a big of fan of 'shoehorning' Buddhist and Taoist concepts into a system as well.... so its an interesting read with a lot of familiar concepts. I'll have to have a closer look at!

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08 Apr 2019 13:08 - 08 Apr 2019 13:22 #336986 by EnergyGem
Before I respond to your post you mentioned in your first response:

My ISP returned a warning about the link being possibly not safe, but it did so with nature.com as well the other day, so I'm mentioning it as a word of caution, but assume a false positive for the sake of charity.


Do you mind sharing a screenshot of this warning? I'd be most interested in seeing it.

Here is the link result from Norton which shows that the link is safe:

safeweb.norton.com/report/show?url=http%...Zhuan-Falun-2018.pdf

Agreed. Newton didn't explicitly state that the purpose of his work was to win converts to his faith, but that, too, wouldn't do anything to damage its merits. The problem I have is that unlike with Newton, whose work I am qualified to review myself, I am not qualified to review Mr. Liu's, so I'm asking if anyone who is has.


You're right that the scientific result needs to be peer reviewed and more research in this field needs to be done.

Newton did tie in his scientific work with his spiritual faith very closely:

“About the times of the End, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” - Newton

It costs me nothing at all to say that their work was unscientific. In fact, quite a lot of ancient Greek natural philosophy is far less scientific than even the description of that experiment from the article you linked. At the end of the day, if one doesn't have the qualifications to evaluate whether a work is scientific or not, one is stuck relying on the reviews of those who do (i.e. a review by the author's peers). I don't think you would be questioning the importance of peer review if you had any reason to think that the article you linked underwent any.



There are scientific discoveries from the times of ancient Greece that are still being taught today such as the Pythagorean theorem, the mathematics of Archimedes and others. These scientific discoveries have stood the test of time, peer review does not make something scientifically sound. Saying that however I will concur, that more testing (including peer review) would be beneficial in solidifying these scientific results.

Yes, you are right, knowing the history of far eastern expert rings faking names and reviews, even on articles that did undergo peer review one should remain ever skeptical. What's your point?



Who is faking names and reviews? That comment is a little hostile to say the least. The tests were all done under strict scientific conditions and are all scientifically sound. Peer review would be a great thing for these tests to go through and hopefully some open minded scientists will continue with this research as I feel it would lead to new discoveries.

Excuse me, the other article you linked was from 2001! How is this "in early stages"? The practice hasn't been around for as long as a decade by that time and it has been almost two decades since! Just what pace do you think medical research is progressing at if this is "early stage" still?



People still believe in the 'theory' of evolution and that's quite old to say the least even though it has more holes in it then swiss Cheese. When Darwin presented his theory of evolution it was full of holes, with the biggest flaw being the lack of the intermediate periods of evolution from ape to man and from paleo lives to modern lives—they’re missing not just for humans, but for other lives and animals as well. How can that be explained?

Sorry I digressed there a little bit. When I said 'early stages' what I meant was, science is only slowly warming to these new avenues and research into human/energy experiments with Falun Dafa. I feel in the future this field of research will expand rapidly once more tests and data confirm that these tests are all true and sound. Actually one reason for this is that many scientists (but not all) believe that anything outside of their currently defined axioms must be unscientific.

Yes, apparently. This is a dissertation which tend to be reviewed by supervisors rather than independent colleagues, but at least here we have some names and dates to work with. However, it is about the internal effects of the practice on practitioners' brains, moods, and health, which is frankly expected with and without parallel worlds or souls. It's not like the other article that is about beaming "energy" out of one's hands to a remote sample... sort of like magic.



You have names to work with with the previous scientific experiment as well. Here is yet another scientific test performed on Falun Dafa practioners. It contains names, addresses and contact details. It was performed at the Baylor College of Medicine in Houston Texas.

An Ancient Cultivation Practice Falun Gong Improves Neutrophil Functions and Causes System-level Gene Regulation ( it's the 2nd link and it downloads as an RTF file):

scholar.google.com.au/scholar?q=conferen...as_vis=1&oi=scholart

Do you have anything to say about the topics you brought up or no? I really don't care what you recommend me to check out if you yourself have nothing of substance to say on the subject, because I can't talk to the book, I can only talk to people. The chapter you linked here contains lies about how science operates and what inquiries it allegedly wouldn't permit in general, and about Einstein in particular. I have no interest in responding to the book, though, because the book is not a person. You are. If you have nothing to say, then we have nothing to talk about.



What I will say is that certain scientists stubbornly hold on to their current formulated axioms, if science is to make new and profound inroads it must broaden it's mind and allow research into these fields. There is a section from Zhuan Falun that talks about this very matter:

"Some of the things we’ll be discussing provoke strong reactions from people, who quickly dismiss them. They think that anything that isn’t known to science or that they haven’t personally experienced isn’t possible, and must be nonsense and divorced from reality. But is that the right way to look at the world?—to write off anything not known to science, or not discovered yet? It seems to me that this line of thinking puts a little too much faith in science, and itself is divorced from reality. If everyone had this mindset it would utterly stifle any scientific discovery or innovation. And you would see few developments in the world, more broadly. Every technological development represents a step beyond what was formerly known.

If the world’s innovators had treated the unknown as “nonsense,” we wouldn’t be where we are today. Many people simply don’t understand spiritual practices like chi-gong or tai-chi, and think they are nonsense. But that’s not the case. There’s plenty of scientific evidence suggesting otherwise. Scientific instruments have detected that the bodies of true masters of these practices emit everything from infrasonic waves to ultrasonic and electromagnetic waves, to infrared rays, ultraviolet rays, gamma rays, neutrons, atoms, and trace metal elements. All of these are very much real and physically exist. There is a physical basis to everything. And the same would certainly hold true for the other dimensions and realms that we discuss. There’s no grounds for writing them off as nonsense. Since these practices are meant to make us divine, any discussion of them is naturally going to touch upon a lot of deep things, and we won’t shy away from them."


These energies are now being researched by various well known institutions such as Stanford University and others:

www.theepochtimes.com/superhuman-energy-...-science_461442.html

True.Good.Endure
Last edit: 08 Apr 2019 13:22 by EnergyGem.

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08 Apr 2019 13:36 #336989 by EnergyGem

Would you consider the Wikipedia page to be a good representation of it?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong

I'm a big of fan of 'shoehorning' Buddhist and Taoist concepts into a system as well.... so its an interesting read with a lot of familiar concepts. I'll have to have a closer look at!


Yes the wiki for Falun Dafa is quite an honest and balanced view of the practice in my opinion. You can find more info about the whole cultivation system at the main site here:

www.falundafa.org

True.Good.Endure

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08 Apr 2019 14:28 - 08 Apr 2019 14:34 #336990 by Gisteron

EnergyGem wrote: There are scientific discoveries from the times of ancient Greece that are still being taught today such as the Pythagorean theorem, the mathematics of Archimedes and others.

Mathematics is not a science. The Pythagorean theorem is - as the name suggest - a theorem, not a theory. It is a matter of logical proof, not of scientific inquiry. No amount of experiment can substantiate it or call it into question.


These scientific discoveries have stood the test of time, peer review does not make something scientifically sound.

And I didn't say that it did and have no clue why you bring it up again.


Yes, you are right, knowing the history of far eastern expert rings faking names and reviews, even on articles that did undergo peer review one should remain ever skeptical. What's your point?



Who is faking names and reviews? That comment is a little hostile to say the least.

See the context of my response. You linked to a Washington Post article about a journal retracting 43 mostly Chinese papers because of fake reviews. The report links to another article about 60 papers retracted due to fake reviews from a review ring orchestrated by a Taiwanese author. Maybe to avoid confusion, next time it may be helpful to read the news you reference.


The tests were all done under strict scientific conditions and are all scientifically sound.

I'm glad you think so. I for one am not a microbiologist. I have no means to judge whether the test in the Liu paper is sound. I'll have to wait for the reviews.


Peer review would be a great thing for these tests to go through and hopefully some open minded scientists will continue with this research as I feel it would lead to new discoveries.

Well, you seem to know enough about the subject to assess whether the methods were sound. Why don't you continue this research?

People still believe in the 'theory' of evolution and that's quite old to say the least even though it has more holes in it then swiss Cheese. When Darwin presented his theory of evolution it was full of holes, with the biggest flaw being the lack of the intermediate periods of evolution from ape to man and from paleo lives to modern lives—they’re missing not just for humans, but for other lives and animals as well. How can that be explained?

The theory makes testable predictions that keep matching observations all of the time. I don't know what you mean by "intermediate periods of evolution from ape to man", because the granularity of evolution is far below even the generational timescale, and man is a species of ape anyway, and we have sequenced the complete genome only to find that yes, indeed, it does perfectly match the also completed fossil record.


Sorry I digressed there a little bit. When I said 'early stages' what I meant was, science is only slowly warming to these new avenues and research into human/energy experiments with Falun Dafa. I feel in the future this field of research will expand rapidly once more tests and data confirm that these tests are all true and sound. Actually one reason for this is that many scientists (but not all) believe that anything outside of their currently defined axioms must be unscientific.

Can you name two of those "many scientists" who believe that? Also, what axioms are those exactly, anyway?

What I will say is that certain scientists stubbornly hold on to their current formulated axioms, ...

Ok, so nothing on the actual topics then. Fair enough. Be well.

Last edit: 08 Apr 2019 14:34 by Gisteron.

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