Have we become too generalized or too specific?

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05 Feb 2019 02:18 - 05 Feb 2019 02:31 #333643 by OB1Shinobi
Im breaking my post into two so that its mentally easier to read lol

When i came here it was in pursuit of a training culture that at least made a serious effort at shaping people into Jedi. Many of you have got the thousands of pages worth of novels and comic books (and at this point, video games) to draw on but all i had were the movies. And taking the movies as source material, Jedi were warrior mystics- deeply motivated and disciplined individuals who were capable of violence and who put themselves in danger for the betterment of the galaxy. They were very goal oriented (whats a mission?) and they had minimum standards of efficiency and competence across a multitude of subjects. There was a real curriculum in place to shape them into exceptional individuals.

So i was pretty surprised when i found out TOTJO were just normal people, lol. I cant see that Alan Watts or the prayer of St Francis or (and especially) Joseph Campbell would ever produce a warrior/mystic who was genuinely capable of battling an evil Empire and willing to sacrifice their own life to do it, lol. Jedi training is not really an appropriate term for what people are doing here but that issue is resolved when you understand that its more of a metaphor for “being a good person” and that we’re all allowed to decide for ourselves what a “good person” is. This is the only focus TOTJO is lacking, imo, but no one wants to be excluded or cause the exclusion of others (except the ones they dont like lol) so its a lack of focus that has been deliberately instantiated into the dogma.

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Last edit: 05 Feb 2019 02:31 by OB1Shinobi.
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05 Feb 2019 02:25 #333644 by Kelrax Lorcken

OB1Shinobi wrote: Physical churches and temples often do act as community hubs as well as places of worship. A church i went to years ago was known for its Friday night bon fires, its “pumpkin patch” (selling pumpkins) through october and november, its Thanksgiving Day Feast, with music and fellowship and food on TG and live plays on Christmas and Easter. All of this was open to everyone. I was at a Buddhist temple Sunday and there was a little market place there on the property where you could buy traditional thai food or go to the garden and buy plants and herbs.

What EXACTLY you guys talking about when you say we shouldnt be a hub? If you had your way theres be no more guests accounts? No more open discussions? No more rants thread? Would we be still be allowed to talk about science? What about important trends in culture? Politics? No more “debating” allowed? If two people are discussing their opinions, it seems meaningless to me unless theres some difference between them. And difference of opinion is unavoidable even in spheres where theres very little interpretive freedom over subject matter- is disagreeing and explaining why you see things differently going to be against the rules?

This is something ive never understood..Participation in “the hub” is entirely optional. If you dont want to debate toxic masclunity, or rant about your lousy day or share a funny cat-fails video in the humor section, you dont have to. Its actually quite a “jedi” thing to do to limit yourself to what you feel you should be doing, and disregarding the rest. There not been very many people who i just ignore altogether but theres been two or three in my time here that when i see they post, i just dont care. I dont read what they write and i dont care what they think. I dont post in every topic - i dont eveb reas every topic if its obviously about something that doesnt interest me. The “we shouldnt be a hub” position (which ive seen different iterations of in my time here) always seems like code for “i dont like it so you shouldnt be able to do it”


You make really good points here, OB1. Honestly, despite my position, I don't disagree with yours. It's not my intent to disallow socializing, or the like, but more actively encourage the spiritual purpose of the temple. I don't want to take the more casual and welcoming parts of this community away, but I can see how it looks that way in my argument, and regret giving that impression.

Kelrax "Stormcaller" Lorcken, Jedi Pathfinder
May The Force Guide You
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05 Feb 2019 05:01 #333656 by Avalon

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: So you mention that you took other oaths that you consider permanently binding, so what was the difference in being willing to take those oaths but your reluctance here to do the same? It can’t be just simply a lack of understanding or knowledge of the culture of the temple after so many years here. This is why trust is so important, it works both ways. The tradition/temple must trust that the oath taker is actually worthy of being let into the training as the initiate is that the temple will be something they can believe in. that’s part of the problem here, anyone can take the oath any time and that’s not the way it should be.


I stated quite plainly my "reluctance": I have entirely valid personal concerns that keep me from being willing to post personal identifying information on a public website, as the current oath requires. It has nothing to do with trust or lack therein, or a lack of understanding or knowledge. If you (or anyone leadership wise) have a desire to discuss my oath, then feel free to contact me on discord. I'll gladly continue the discussion there, but it's not relevant here. The only thing that is relevant here is that the posting of personal information on a public forum is one of the (very valid) reasons the Oath was removed from membership requirements.



I don't disagree that the way the Oath is structured now, it does lack a bit of meaning. And by that, I mean the fact that it can be taken at any point in time. In that, Kyrin, we do not disagree. However, I do disagree with the current Oath returning as a requirement for membership in the current process, for the reasons I stated above, the reasons why it was removed from that requirement to begin with. And I do hope that if the council is considering returning it to the membership process, they remember those reasons in making their decision. Were it me, I'd restructure the way membership is given, but that's not really the discussion here either.

I've had at least one other person tell me in the last few days that they assume the reason the oath requires your real name and birthdate is for legal reasons, primarily concerning TOTJO's status as a church and the clergy, and I know I had it stated to me previously that that was part of the reasoning. I can't say for certain that that is in fact why the Oath and Vow require legal name and birthdate when posting, but it stands to be a valid reason. As such, I'm not sure utilizing username is, in fact, a viable alternative; that's for the council to decide.

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05 Feb 2019 06:36 #333667 by JamesSand
Despite the fact that I do enjoy the "bantz" and some of the other random goings-on at TotJO - I do actually think (in some opposition to Obi) that, yes (or no, depending on how you like your language) we shouldn't be a "hub"

As a, uh, movement? I guess topics should be more or less limited to "Jediism stuff"

It's hard to set hard limits on what it is or isn't. Some of it comes down to tone and delivery.

"here's a a ted talk [link] "

vs

"I saw this ted talk and it really resonates with me and how I try to/would like to try to employ jedi ideals in my workplace"

I'm not going to search the threads, but I feel confident many of them are pretty unrelated to what it is to be Jedi, or Jedi problems, and some of them are probably pretty thinly veiled.

(They might also possibly be the ones that get the most traffic, because people love gossip and sulking far more than they love being good people)

I'm not necessarily advocating hardline topic rules - most forums will have some kind of "workout" thread, regardless of the forum theme, it's just a thing people like to talk about, and sometimes with a community they feel they "know" more than just reading Men's Health articles....


I digress. Too much of what goes on here is just internet garbage, and it dilutes the purpose of the church.
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05 Feb 2019 08:24 #333672 by Arisaig

JamesSand wrote: Despite the fact that I do enjoy the "bantz" and some of the other random goings-on at TotJO - I do actually think (in some opposition to Obi) that, yes (or no, depending on how you like your language) we shouldn't be a "hub"

As a, uh, movement? I guess topics should be more or less limited to "Jediism stuff"

It's hard to set hard limits on what it is or isn't. Some of it comes down to tone and delivery.

"here's a a ted talk [link] "

vs

"I saw this ted talk and it really resonates with me and how I try to/would like to try to employ jedi ideals in my workplace"

I'm not going to search the threads, but I feel confident many of them are pretty unrelated to what it is to be Jedi, or Jedi problems, and some of them are probably pretty thinly veiled.

(They might also possibly be the ones that get the most traffic, because people love gossip and sulking far more than they love being good people)

I'm not necessarily advocating hardline topic rules - most forums will have some kind of "workout" thread, regardless of the forum theme, it's just a thing people like to talk about, and sometimes with a community they feel they "know" more than just reading Men's Health articles....


I digress. Too much of what goes on here is just internet garbage, and it dilutes the purpose of the church.


Amen buddy. When we stray from Jediism on this place, it often tends to spiral out of control. (with exception of single post threads such as the what are you listening to thread, and the rants thread (which I find is great for letting off some steam in my personal life, since no one in my daily life I know frequents the totjo)

Perhaps it's best to limit it. If one wants to discuss something further, there is PM's for that.

I do find it funny when people stay because of the friends they have here. Those I consider friends I often add to my Facebook (I'm not hard to find. Just type Arisaig into FB, you'll find me. Lol), so this place can remain just a place of training and learning.

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05 Feb 2019 15:33 #333682 by Kyrin Wyldstar

Avalon wrote:
I stated quite plainly my "reluctance": I have entirely valid personal concerns that keep me from being willing to post personal identifying information on a public website,


I understand completely. I was making the assumption that if the oath were returned it would be under the requirement only to use the screen names. So not to drag this out endlessly, I was just asking if you would be ok with using an oath with a screen name?

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05 Feb 2019 15:52 #333683 by Arisaig
But why hide your real name?

Because one is a minor? There is a case to be made a minor cannot understand what this is, truly, and thus should be be able to become a member. Besides, they cant even pursue knighthood until they're sixteen...

One can be a member and sit on council, as we've seen. So, with that kind of ruling, someone can sit on council without us knowing who they really are.

If you have so much to hide by using a fake name when taking an oath, you're not to be trusted. Hell, it's not like we check up on what your actual name is. So why use your screen name?

BTW, my name is Everett Ratcliffe. My insta, twitter, and Facebook are under Arisaig Ioach. I have nothing to hide. Nothing to be ashamed of, and will always take my oaths, as I always have, under my real name. Why? Because I am.

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05 Feb 2019 15:58 #333684 by Arisaig
This thread was about being to general or too specific.
To allow people to hide behind a username while they pursue a leading role here, or to represent our group as a member... Well, that allows for us to become far too general. A hub for cosplayers and fakes.

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05 Feb 2019 16:15 #333686 by Kyrin Wyldstar

Arisaig wrote: This thread was about being to general or too specific.
To allow people to hide behind a username while they pursue a leading role here, or to represent our group as a member... Well, that allows for us to become far too general. A hub for cosplayers and fakes.


I have heard you say many times that Everette died when Arisaig was born. So who is Arisaig? A fake? A cosplayer? Why attach so much importance to a simple thing as a name? All the name does is represent the character of a person. That character is whats important, its what we trust, not the name.

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05 Feb 2019 16:16 #333688 by For-Emris

Arisaig wrote: But why hide your real name?


In my country, freedom of religion exists only on paper (in the constitution). In reality, if a person is not a Christian (Orthodox or Catholic) or an atheist, and does not hide it ... Problems with employment in large companies are guaranteed. The Jehovah’s Witcher, for example, has little chance of getting a TOP position (no matter how professional he is). I think this is a good reason not to leave your real name on open Internet resources.

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