Have we become too generalized or too specific?

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03 Feb 2019 19:54 #333528 by Rosalyn J
We have spoken about reinstating the oath for membership.

I also had to take an oath and a vow.

The oath is now voluntary, but the vow for knights is not.

How people live out their oaths and vows is bound to be different on an individual level. That is where many conflicts arise.

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03 Feb 2019 20:04 - 03 Feb 2019 20:12 #333529 by JamesSand

How people live out their oaths and vows is bound to be different on an individual level. That is where many conflicts arise.


And this is a hop, skip, and a jump away from just letting people piss in the pool.


Of course, even if you've got clear standards, this is a religion and a church, it's damn near impossible to actually police it. Sure you can Ban me from the forum, but you can't stop me from telling everyone I know I'm a jedi.
Last edit: 03 Feb 2019 20:12 by JamesSand.
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03 Feb 2019 20:19 #333530 by Avalon

We have spoken about reinstating the oath for membership.


Just don't forget the reasons why it was changed to voluntary in the first place:

Public posting of personal information (name and birthdate) and the safety concerns therein

An increase of minors doing so because they thought they had to

The idea of swearing an oath to a system that you're just starting to learn about (novice level)

The fact that some have personal reasons (current religion, culture, etc) for foregoing the swearing of oaths (and yes I know it's been said that there are available alternatives for those individuals, but I've also heard it said that alternatives weren't acceptable)


I would understand the reimplementation at the apprentice level, posted to the apprentice boards. But purely for membership.... Not so much.

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03 Feb 2019 20:56 - 03 Feb 2019 20:57 #333533 by Kyrin Wyldstar
All those reasons to not swear an oath are invalid though. Just because you swear in and decide it's not right doesnt mean you cant revoke it. And use temple names not real names. Every religion you commit to requires a commitment or oath. Pagans take a measure even before any training is done. It's a commitment to trust as much as doctrine. Christian churches require you take a class before membership is granted. That's the function of the IP here. I see no reason to not require an oath. And if your not willing to, then move on and enough said. It's actually not for everyone no matter how much people want it to be. Either this place will define the minimum standards such as this or the actual identification as a jedi temple will continue to elude it.

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03 Feb 2019 20:57 #333534 by ren
The simple oath is rather mild when compared to the legally-binding end user license agreements we have to agree to when using free software and services.

Heck for us in the EU agreeing to cookies is more complex than the simple oath.

Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.
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03 Feb 2019 21:23 #333536 by Br. John

JamesSand wrote: I am not sure what the question is, but by the vague discussion I suppose I can guess something.

Since we're being vague, I think ToTJO tried to be too much to too many and now is nothing to anyone.


You might say it is a toothless tiger.

It's...a big empty concrete carpark. Everyone is welcome, and can enjoy...the big empty concrete carpark.

But who would want to? There's nothing there that is remotely interesting or challenging.

Some people have slightly fancier hats, but I can't see that they are enjoying them more than I am, or that those hats have helped them at all, so why would I even bother asking how they got them, much less strive to obtain one for myself.


Now I will confess this is the jism of what I was thinking myself.

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I am the Master Cylinder and I live on the moon.

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03 Feb 2019 21:36 #333539 by Kelrax Lorcken
Some good points and arguments made thus far.
Bringing an outsiders perspective, I can see the merit of trying harder to reinstate some stricter practices, as a semi-open religion.
I came here from Kemetic Orthodoxy, which has a controversial image in other religious circles for, over the years, become increasingly secular in it's teachings and practices.
Without actual, direct encouragement to actively/actually participate in the faith, well, the faithful and more sincere get crowded out.
It's possible to be open to all and still have boundaries and expectations, and it should be ok for an established group to enforce them.
Honestly, I don't feel threatened by this discussion as though I face expulsion. I actually feel somewhat encouraged to try harder within the temple itself, seeing that the community actually cares if I do.
Lightin' a fire under me, that's what y'all are doing:P

Kelrax "Stormcaller" Lorcken, Jedi Pathfinder
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03 Feb 2019 21:53 #333543 by Neaj Pa Bol
I find it interesting that now, as I am in the steps much as Jestor was, in retiring and leaving TOTJO after 13 years put in from the days before the corporation was completed, for the numerous issues and more listed here.

It’s destruction is from all directions, pointing fingers is a past and moot issue. Too much was done based on senseless demands to implement things that as much of you have pointed out, a hub rather than a Church. This is why too many Jedi communities have either failed completely or folded an ugly, destructive mess. The destruction of the Doctrine that focused less on being a Church and more to teachings less becoming...

I joined because it was to be a “Church”. A place open to all faiths to believe and study “Jediism” in their own way, even under the laughable ideas to others...

I’ve fought and defended it, even to the extent of pissing people off because I believed wholeheartedly in what we were doing. I’ve watched this degrad to items brought that have no place or teachings here. But, the loudest and influential ones won out. And here we are... I hope it can be resurrected....

My best to you all always...
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03 Feb 2019 22:00 - 03 Feb 2019 22:14 #333544 by Adder
I joined to build on a rather ok foundation; doctrinal focus (military type of doctrine, not religious type - despite the nature of the content), further learning through a degree program, and resultant community. But the building never seemed to happen, and those things were lost through degradation from site updates, and no growth from the top end.... leaving the empty carpark of people. It seems many seeked to fight the concept of structure and process, in both doctrine and degree areas, leaving the only area of activity being the result (community) - which is quite literally putting the cart before the horse. The idea of community is probably meant to be more then just who walks in the door, and instead the connection of people with shared focus and interest. Without the focus, the superficial interest was not enough alone to build the strong cohesion we might feel is missing. Just my opinion though, and cognizent that team efforts in this sort of volunteer part time environment are never going to be hard charging bleeding edge endeavors espousing next level best practise. Oh, and lots of big personalities, with many seeing rank as authority, and some folk seeing participation as ownership which feels like a justification for authority - basically grasping for something on the outside which is on the inside, wanting the Church to fit them rather then seeing it as the Temple for many. Space for difference, and celebration of difference - not attacking it under the guise of criticality etc.

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Last edit: 03 Feb 2019 22:14 by Adder.
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03 Feb 2019 22:34 #333547 by Avalon
When it comes to the oath, sure dropping the requirement of personal information would solve many problems, but I can't say that it wouldn't create others. Oaths are considered legal contracts in many jurisdictions and require the use of legal name. I can only assume that that is the reason both the oath and the vow make use of name and birthdate.

As for the IP being a "pre-membershio class"... That is slightly the role it fills. Except that the IP is not required for membership, and to be listed formally as a novice or initiate, membership is required. And that's why the oath was moved to after completing the IP...

I would disagree with your assessment that "every religion" requires those things. When I was part of a Christian church, I took no class before deciding to become a member and be baptised. When I was learning paganism, no oath was required of me.

If we want to make membership dependant upon completion of the IP, taking an oath, and filling out the application, then fine... You're solving the issue of taking an oath to something to know little about if you were to take it pre-IP, which is what the requirement was when I joined.

Posting the oath in a forum for initiates or apprentices and above helps solve the personal security issues.

None of these solutions solve the issue of having a current culture or religion which prohibits the taking of oaths, and we have had members in the past who fall into that category. And the reason for that is because in those cultures, oaths cannot be retracted. There is no "I changed my mind"; they're a permanently binding thing. I've taken one oath publicly in my lifetime and even though I'm officially "retired" from that group, I consider it to be binding to this day, and I always will.

When I first joined, to become a member the membership application and oath were both required. You could still do the IP, you simply had no rank. And that's what I did. For two reasons: personal security and my job. Later, the oath was moved to after the IP and optional. I became a member then, almost two years after I joined. I still have not publicly taken the oath for the same reasons listed above. My past requires I have discretion in posting who I am online. And on the very off hand chance I return to the job I held at that time, public posting of my information could be held against me. This has nothing to do with my commitment to or lack thereof; the internet is hardly safe and I'll always be cautious about using it.

So I would hardly call the reasons the oath was removed as a membership requirement invalid, though I will concede there other ways to mitigate those concerns.

But this isn't meant to be a discussion on whether or not we should reinstitute the oath for membership .... It's a discussion on the vageness or specificity of.... Something.

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