July 2012 IP Update

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18 Jul 2012 22:21 - 18 Jul 2012 22:22 #67367 by Mark Anjuu
The Initiate's Programme has been in its current state for over 2 years and we have been in the process of discussing an update in Council. It has been agreed that we should open up the suggestions process to those who have completed the IP - those that hold the rank of Apprentice and above. So this Committee section and post has been created for that purpose.

Please add your suggestions in this section so that we can keep a track of them. It would be useful to create a new topic for every suggested section otherwise one thread will get filled up with everything and it will all get confusing!

For example, if you think we should we should expand our faith section in the IP, start a topic on Faith (or add to an existing topic of that nature) and list your suggestions there. If you think we should have a Section on Z that contains topics A, B and C, create a topic for X and list A, B and C in it.

We value your opinion and contributions. However, the final arrangement and acceptance of the IP will be undertaken by the Council. Please don't be upset if some of your suggestions don't make it in the next edition - we can't please everyone all of the time and compromises always have to be made so that we can act in the best interests of the majority of people. This happens throughout the Temple (even in Council!) and sometimes we have to give up our own desires for the greater good. :)

It also should go without saying that things said here should not be discussed by people who have not achieved the rank of apprentice. We just don't need the extra work that would be created by consulting those that haven't even finished the IP.

These suggestions will help us to create the new edition of the Initiate's Programme so to help us shape the future of the Temple and its training, add your thoughts!

Rev. Mark Barwell OCP
  • Pastor of the Order
  • Vice President, Bishop and Councillor of TOTJO
  • Arch-Bishop of the U.K.
  • GrandMaster Knight of Jediism
  • Paganism Special Interest Advisor
Apprentices: Leena, Darren, Slydogstags, meatloaf, Rosalyn J
Former Apprentices: Karn, Angelus, Adder, Phortis Nespin
Last edit: 18 Jul 2012 22:22 by Mark Anjuu.

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18 Jul 2012 23:20 #67377 by PloKoon
Replied by PloKoon on topic July 2012 IP Update
I think a good place to start is a GUI type interface for the IP program. It seems that even though it IS laid out before the student, there is still confusion as to what work is required. I can only imagine how many questions (admin) are asked when the answer is explained in the F A Q.

More to come....

Master: Br.John

Abrahamic Rite

Martial Study: Baguazhang, Ninjutsu

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18 Jul 2012 23:32 #67381 by Akkarin
Replied by Akkarin on topic July 2012 IP Update
A few things off the top of my head:

My main point would be that the question "How do you think this would be relevant for a Jedi?" is not asked nearly enough (or at all?). This is especially important as it should hopefully prim them to think about this from a TOTJO/Jedi point of view

Insert miscellaneous "Needs restructuring/rewording and formatting" comment

The somewhat random task of 'personal tools'... what we need here is just 'prompts' that get people to consider the importance of those things For example having more than just single words...:

Etiquette (Both In the physical world and in written form)


Becomes:

What is etiquette and why do you think it might be important for someone to behave in specific manners? You may wish also to consider when being polite amounts to living by other people's rules and standards.


This expansion of the task is pretty much true for most of the lessons. They just say "Read/watch/listen to this and post your thoughts" instead of explicitly mentioning to consider the topics and their merits/downfalls and how this might apply to themselves etc

To be honest I feel that the degree points awarded to work in the Initiates Programme is too great in regards to the amount of work done for it. If you look at how much a lesson/task on the IP is worth compared to how much work similar amounts of points for the degree would be much more (basically I think you get too many points for it)

How about adding Eckhart Tolles book (forget the name) into the IP as well seeing as most Initiates seem to have to end up doing it anyway...

I would also like to have at least some of the IP dedicated to 'critical thinking'. I think it is lacking and any apprentice of mine finds they will HAVE to do a several lesson course on the ideas of it :D

Doesn't have to be in depth, just at least a small introductory topic to the concepts and importance of them





Everything needs changing except for the back catalogue which is written perfectly... :whistle:

"If a tree falls in the woods and no one's around to hear it except for one man, but the tree falls on that man and kills him, does the man dying make a sound?" - Jon Lajoie

Apprentice: Desolous , Xaii
Master: Br. John

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18 Jul 2012 23:51 #67383 by PloKoon
Replied by PloKoon on topic July 2012 IP Update
Eckhart Tolle : "The Power of the Now" and "A New Earth".

Also, "Star Wars and Philosophy "More Power Than you can possibly Imagine" (edited by Kevin S. Decker and Jason T. Eberl (Open Court Publisher)

Master: Br.John

Abrahamic Rite

Martial Study: Baguazhang, Ninjutsu

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19 Jul 2012 00:13 - 19 Jul 2012 00:16 #67388 by V-Tog
Replied by V-Tog on topic July 2012 IP Update
I'm sure I will have a few points to make on the IP once I've had some more time to think :P

Thoughts on the back-catalogue exercises

I think that it is not clear what is expected of people in the back-catalogue exercises. The way that I did them, and everyone else doing them around the same time as me (i.e. before they were re-written), was to write each one as an in-depth essay analysing different aspects of myself and my beliefs. They are more about how you see your views and past experiences guiding you along your path in Jediism.

But now...people have started to use the prompts as questions and have split each exercise up into lots of smaller questions, are writing only one or two sentences in answer to each prompt, and seem to be putting very little effort or personal reflection into them - illustrated by the fact that people are now completing all 10 back-catalogue exercises within very short amounts of time - sometimes within the space of a day, it seems.

I know that Senior Knight Akkarin has been rewording them, and I think a good job was done on that. But the level of reflection required, or desired, is still not apparent, and I'm not sure that people are getting out of them as much as they could. On a personal note: I can remember almost word for word what I wrote for the 10 back-catalogue exercises, and they played a large part in helping me to identify my views and see how I fitted in to Jediism. I still often find myself referring to what I wrote. I think that is a wonderful thing, and what the Initiate's Programme should be aiming for - to build a lasting foundation on which a person's Jedi faith can be built, or consolidated. Hence why it worries me that people seem to be looking at them and going "that's easy, I can finish these exercises in no time!". If you are examining yourself deeply enough...I'm not sure that it should be easy.

I would also suggest revising the content of the back-catalogue exercises. I personally didn't feel that I gained very much from completing the one about swords (number 10), or cults (number 8), and I felt that the thesis, antithesis and synthesis exercise (number 1) seemed out of place and should perhaps have been in the Personal Tools section. I'm not convinced about the exercise on having a healthy body either (exercise 7), as some people are of the view that that has no relevance to Jediism, yet I think it would be quite hard to say that in response to the questions asked. Things that new members have questioned me on and could perhaps be included would be:

- how a Jedi should view and deal with emotions
- the difference/fine-line between love and hate, and how a Jedi should view them
- the possible origins of human belief in the Force and the ways in which the Force has been portrayed through history
- a discussion of the novice's experiences of meditation (the only time that meditation is discussed is in relation to the specific Watts meditation exercise)


Hope I don't sound stroppy :laugh: I just want people to be able to get as much out of the Programme as I did!
Last edit: 19 Jul 2012 00:16 by V-Tog.

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19 Jul 2012 00:25 - 19 Jul 2012 00:34 #67392 by V-Tog
Replied by V-Tog on topic July 2012 IP Update

Akkarin wrote: A few things off the top of my head:

My main point would be that the question "How do you think this would be relevant for a Jedi?" is not asked nearly enough (or at all?). This is especially important as it should hopefully prim them to think about this from a TOTJO/Jedi point of view

Insert miscellaneous "Needs restructuring/rewording and formatting" comment

The somewhat random task of 'personal tools'... what we need here is just 'prompts' that get people to consider the importance of those things For example having more than just single words...:

Etiquette (Both In the physical world and in written form)


Becomes:

What is etiquette and why do you think it might be important for someone to behave in specific manners? You may wish also to consider when being polite amounts to living by other people's rules and standards.


This expansion of the task is pretty much true for most of the lessons. They just say "Read/watch/listen to this and post your thoughts" instead of explicitly mentioning to consider the topics and their merits/downfalls and how this might apply to themselves etc


I don't think that everything needs to be elaborated on, necessarily. Edit: although I do agree that it would be good to find a way of encouraging people to relate what they are writing about to Jediism.

What is interesting about the Initiate's Programme is that everyone interprets things differently. By saying 'write your thoughts on this', without giving many or any other prompts, you allow a much greater possibility that someone will say something really unique and individual.

I don't feel in general that the aim should be to get people to write about certain things, or reply in a certain way...as long as they are completing the exericses in enough depth (hearkening back to my previous post :P ).

This isn't a school - people don't need spoonfeeding, or signposting towards a particular train of thought. They need to be encouraged to think for themselves, as this is one of the main qualities that they will need as an Apprentice and Knight.

And by depth, I don't mean length. I just mean that it should be evident that people have put a lot of thought into their answers, and hopefully have given themselves time to think or meditate on each exercise/lesson. If they have, that will be evident in what they write, regardless of length.

Edit: and now this seems to contradict what I was saying about people not always writing very much for the back-catalogue exercises...when I say 'regardless of length', I guess I am thinking about the fact that for each topic, there will be a natural minimum amount of words in which you could satisfactorily answer the question. I'm not condoning only writing a few sentences, or one short paragraph etc...)
Last edit: 19 Jul 2012 00:34 by V-Tog.

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19 Jul 2012 00:56 #67395 by ren
Replied by ren on topic July 2012 IP Update
Back catalogue exercises have been modified since you did them V-Tog. Same exercises, less confusing.

In regards of the general state of the IP, the new IP already is organized in a better significantly less confusing way (cant call that a gui though lol).

We'd like you to mostly comment on the material offered... people have criticized the IP for being bland in places, we'd also like to hear suggestions for additional material. Thanks.

Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.

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19 Jul 2012 01:16 - 19 Jul 2012 01:19 #67396 by hellisforhorses
Replied by hellisforhorses on topic July 2012 IP Update
Overall, I enjoyed the IP, the only part I found difficult was listening to Lesson 4 The [Real] Force

aka ‘The Field’ by Lynn McTaggart, who tends to go a little fast for my taste. My only recommendation

for updating the IP would be to add a link to the adobe-reader version of 'The Field', so

that the Novices taking the Program can follow along a bit easier.

Here's the link where I found mine: www.filestube.com/l/lynne+mctaggart+the+field+pdf

"You can't open the book of my life and jump in the middle. Like woman, I'm a mystery." -Malcolm 'Mal' Reynolds


Master: Senior Knight Akkarin

Rite: Pure Land
Last edit: 19 Jul 2012 01:19 by hellisforhorses.

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19 Jul 2012 01:22 #67398 by V-Tog
Replied by V-Tog on topic July 2012 IP Update
You know...I hope you don't think I'd allow myself to comment without knowing something about the material that I'm talking about!

I have read the back-catalogue exercises several times recently, and have been keeping an eye on the changes. In fact, if you'd read my post properly, you'd know that... :P

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19 Jul 2012 03:21 - 19 Jul 2012 03:21 #67412 by ren
Replied by ren on topic July 2012 IP Update
skimming was never meant to be fool proof ;)

(I think the hat distracted me)

Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.
Last edit: 19 Jul 2012 03:21 by ren.

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