IP suggestion: Jordan Peterson

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09 Aug 2019 00:48 #341067 by Kelrax Lorcken

Tempest Nox wrote:

Bru-He WiEph wrote: www.theguardian.com/fashion/2018/may/23/...violent-men-monogamy

www.nytimes.com/2018/05/18/style/jordan-...-rules-for-life.html


Okay, two horribly left biased media sources. Care to try again? I can find similar badly written and slanted "research" regarding the violent nature of homosexual couples from a number of just as biased sources. Please, save it.


Which you're going to say about any source that disagrees with your stance here. We're arguing, and the three brick walls here are just dismissing it out of hand.

Y'all are full of shit.

The divisive nature of this topic alone has become argument enough against even entertaining the idea of including this work. You're obstinately pushing to bring something in here that honestly has more apposed than agreed, at this point, regardless of why.

Noone is going to take JP's work away from you, but it arguably has no place as part of this temple. Keep enjoying it yourself, implement it in your teaching method if you dare, assuming the position to take on an apprentice becomes available to you.

But if you want to argue in favor?

Than.

Make.

An.

Argument.

Stop dismissing them out of hand, and do what you've thus far shown us you can't do: PROVE THEM WRONG.

Kelrax "Stormcaller" Lorcken, Jedi Navigator
May The Force Guide You
www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/47-Jo...-stormcaller?start=0
The following user(s) said Thank You: steamboat28, Carlos.Martinez3

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09 Aug 2019 01:48 #341068 by Manu
Replied by Manu on topic IP suggestion: Jordan Peterson

Kelrax Lorcken wrote: The divisive nature of this topic alone has become argument enough against even entertaining the idea of including this work. You're obstinately pushing to bring something in here that honestly has more apposed than agreed, at this point, regardless of why.


Conceded. I posted this as a suggestion, up for debate. If it is a poor fit, it is a poor fit. No hard feelings.

Make.

An.

Argument.

Stop dismissing them out of hand, and do what you've thus far shown us you can't do: PROVE THEM WRONG.


Shouldn’t the burden of proof be on the one making the accusations? The only one who made an attempt at making a case against Peterson was steamboat, and I replied to that. I would like to see an argument against Peterson that is actually based on what he says, not cherrypicked quotes out of context or articles written about him.

I believe so far I have been rather reasonable, and I am open to being educated. So far the only arguments with validity that I have seen are that his work is derivative / offers nothing new, and the reason I’ve accepted this is because it was posted by someone who I know studies psychology formally.

If your compassion does not include yourself, it is incomplete.

TM: Bruno Moreira (Kyber) | Public Journal
The following user(s) said Thank You: Carlos.Martinez3, Kelrax Lorcken

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09 Aug 2019 01:54 - 09 Aug 2019 01:58 #341069 by Phoenix Vidensia

Kelrax Lorcken wrote: Which you're going to say about any source that disagrees with your stance here. We're arguing, and the three brick walls here are just dismissing it out of hand.


No, I'm going to say that known biased sources are known biased sources. If you can present me a credible and at least half-way unbiased source, I will be unlikely to dismiss it as readily as I did your previous sources.

Furthermore, I have my own suggestion for something to include in the IP if it's not already there... Lessons on how to freaking fact check! Also, lessons on understanding bias and how to siphon through biased news media!

Seriously! Do people even care about what is true anymore or do they just accept whatever agrees with their current opinions?

... Meh ...
Last edit: 09 Aug 2019 01:58 by Phoenix Vidensia.

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09 Aug 2019 02:00 #341070 by VixensVengeance aka Kyrin Wyldstar

Kelrax Lorcken wrote:

Tempest Nox wrote:

Bru-He WiEph wrote: www.theguardian.com/fashion/2018/may/23/...violent-men-monogamy

www.nytimes.com/2018/05/18/style/jordan-...-rules-for-life.html


Okay, two horribly left biased media sources. Care to try again? I can find similar badly written and slanted "research" regarding the violent nature of homosexual couples from a number of just as biased sources. Please, save it.


Which you're going to say about any source that disagrees with your stance here. We're arguing, and the three brick walls here are just dismissing it out of hand.

Y'all are full of shit.

The divisive nature of this topic alone has become argument enough against even entertaining the idea of including this work. You're obstinately pushing to bring something in here that honestly has more apposed than agreed, at this point, regardless of why.

Noone is going to take JP's work away from you, but it arguably has no place as part of this temple. Keep enjoying it yourself, implement it in your teaching method if you dare, assuming the position to take on an apprentice becomes available to you.

But if you want to argue in favor?

Than.

Make.

An.

Argument.

Stop dismissing them out of hand, and do what you've thus far shown us you can't do: PROVE THEM WRONG.



Some of you jedi seem to be some of the rudest people I have ever seen. But perhaps I have interpreted your reply incorrectly. Maybe you could clarify a few things for me?

Who exactly are you describing as "brick walls"?

Which of us "yall" is full of shit?

Why am I interpreting the rest of your post as condescending and belittling?

Solve' et coagula
Non serviam
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09 Aug 2019 02:38 #341071 by Kelrax Lorcken

Manu wrote:

Kelrax Lorcken wrote: The divisive nature of this topic alone has become argument enough against even entertaining the idea of including this work. You're obstinately pushing to bring something in here that honestly has more apposed than agreed, at this point, regardless of why.


Conceded. I posted this as a suggestion, up for debate. If it is a poor fit, it is a poor fit. No hard feelings.

Make.

An.

Argument.

Stop dismissing them out of hand, and do what you've thus far shown us you can't do: PROVE THEM WRONG.


Shouldn’t the burden of proof be on the one making the accusations? The only one who made an attempt at making a case against Peterson was steamboat, and I replied to that. I would like to see an argument against Peterson that is actually based on what he says, not cherrypicked quotes out of context or articles written about him.

I believe so far I have been rather reasonable, and I am open to being educated. So far the only arguments with validity that I have seen are that his work is derivative / offers nothing new, and the reason I’ve accepted this is because it was posted by someone who I know studies psychology formally.


Calming down, if for no other reason I don't have much else, never-mind much else new, to contribute.

I don't think you're being reasonable in dismissing arguments coming from an emotional/impassioned position- nor do I think it's fair to suggest they're of less merit simply for not coming from a position of intellectual authority. In spite of the popular opinion in debate circles, emotional arguments aren't inherently invalid; no, emotions aren't rational, but we still feel them for a reason. People don't just make things up to be offended about, they saw or heard something in it that brought out that response, and there is greater merit to be had for exploring those, as you might find something you hadn't seen, before, or considered, regardless of how intellectually informed it is.

People aren't going to comply with your standards for arguing, simply for the fact they're so subjective; if you only accept/respond seriously to arguments from a source or person that meets with your approval, well, that's pretty one-sided, don't you think?

That's all I've got, at this point. respond or don't, I don't think it really matters, now.

Kelrax "Stormcaller" Lorcken, Jedi Navigator
May The Force Guide You
www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/47-Jo...-stormcaller?start=0

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09 Aug 2019 02:49 #341072 by Kelrax Lorcken

VixensVengeance wrote:

Kelrax Lorcken wrote:

Tempest Nox wrote:

Bru-He WiEph wrote: www.theguardian.com/fashion/2018/may/23/...violent-men-monogamy

www.nytimes.com/2018/05/18/style/jordan-...-rules-for-life.html


Okay, two horribly left biased media sources. Care to try again? I can find similar badly written and slanted "research" regarding the violent nature of homosexual couples from a number of just as biased sources. Please, save it.


Which you're going to say about any source that disagrees with your stance here. We're arguing, and the three brick walls here are just dismissing it out of hand.

Y'all are full of shit.

The divisive nature of this topic alone has become argument enough against even entertaining the idea of including this work. You're obstinately pushing to bring something in here that honestly has more apposed than agreed, at this point, regardless of why.

Noone is going to take JP's work away from you, but it arguably has no place as part of this temple. Keep enjoying it yourself, implement it in your teaching method if you dare, assuming the position to take on an apprentice becomes available to you.

But if you want to argue in favor?

Than.

Make.

An.

Argument.

Stop dismissing them out of hand, and do what you've thus far shown us you can't do: PROVE THEM WRONG.



Some of you jedi seem to be some of the rudest people I have ever seen. But perhaps I have interpreted your reply incorrectly. Maybe you could clarify a few things for me?

Who exactly are you describing as "brick walls"?

Which of us "yall" is full of shit?

Why am I interpreting the rest of your post as condescending and belittling?


Because I am rude, at times. But- and I think a lot of you will appreciate this- does that actually make me wrong?

Kelrax "Stormcaller" Lorcken, Jedi Navigator
May The Force Guide You
www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/47-Jo...-stormcaller?start=0

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09 Aug 2019 03:22 #341073 by VixensVengeance aka Kyrin Wyldstar

Kelrax wrote:
Because I am rude, at times. But- and I think a lot of you will appreciate this- does that actually make me wrong?


Whether you are wrong or not is beside the point. I still want to know if you just called me a shit filled brick wall just because I might disagree with your position?

Solve' et coagula
Non serviam

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09 Aug 2019 05:08 #341076 by Kelrax Lorcken

VixensVengeance wrote:

Kelrax wrote:
Because I am rude, at times. But- and I think a lot of you will appreciate this- does that actually make me wrong?


Whether you are wrong or not is beside the point. I still want to know if you just called me a shit filled brick wall just because I might disagree with your position?


Just for disagreeing with my position? Nope.

I touched on my actual point in a response I gave to Manu, and I'm starting to think, with more thought on my part, there could actually be a separate, good discussion on that, BUT, you do deserve a response.

First of all... Yeah.

It'd be dishonest of me to try and claim I haven't insulted you, among others. I said it, and I meant it.

I feel it's wrong-headed to dismiss an emotional response in such a way that doesn't even try to understand the response, and in a discussion where one side is trying to defend bodies of work supposedly heavy in psychology, but instead call for dispassionate handling, I think, is counter intuitive, and counter-productive. Like getting someone upset, and than telling them to calm down. Responses and explanations were given, and still there seemed to be a sense of not accepting them as answers, with more "You're doing it wrong, try again" counters. To introduce a subject that is going to invoke emotional responses and arguments, only to discount said responses, is where my "full of shit" remark is coming from. I felt the responses were demanded, but with no real interest in what the responses actually were.

The other part is much simpler- for how the discussion had gone, up to that point, I felt it had gotten to a point where, I can only speak for myself, here, I felt the same discussion could have been had with an actual brick wall. Feeling one sided, and accomplishing nothing.

I doubt this makes anyone feel better, but, you asked, and I won't be dishonest, or intimidated.

Kelrax "Stormcaller" Lorcken, Jedi Navigator
May The Force Guide You
www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/47-Jo...-stormcaller?start=0

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09 Aug 2019 06:15 #341078 by VixensVengeance aka Kyrin Wyldstar

Kelrax Lorcken wrote:

VixensVengeance wrote:

Kelrax wrote:
Because I am rude, at times. But- and I think a lot of you will appreciate this- does that actually make me wrong?


Whether you are wrong or not is beside the point. I still want to know if you just called me a shit filled brick wall just because I might disagree with your position?


Just for disagreeing with my position? Nope.

I touched on my actual point in a response I gave to Manu, and I'm starting to think, with more thought on my part, there could actually be a separate, good discussion on that, BUT, you do deserve a response.

First of all... Yeah.

It'd be dishonest of me to try and claim I haven't insulted you, among others. I said it, and I meant it.

I feel it's wrong-headed to dismiss an emotional response in such a way that doesn't even try to understand the response, and in a discussion where one side is trying to defend bodies of work supposedly heavy in psychology, but instead call for dispassionate handling, I think, is counter intuitive, and counter-productive. Like getting someone upset, and than telling them to calm down. Responses and explanations were given, and still there seemed to be a sense of not accepting them as answers, with more "You're doing it wrong, try again" counters. To introduce a subject that is going to invoke emotional responses and arguments, only to discount said responses, is where my "full of shit" remark is coming from. I felt the responses were demanded, but with no real interest in what the responses actually were.

The other part is much simpler- for how the discussion had gone, up to that point, I felt it had gotten to a point where, I can only speak for myself, here, I felt the same discussion could have been had with an actual brick wall. Feeling one sided, and accomplishing nothing.

I doubt this makes anyone feel better, but, you asked, and I won't be dishonest, or intimidated.



Do you think I'm trying to intimidate you? Hmm paranoid as well it seems. I am impressed however, a jedi that actually admits his own hypocracy. You even seem proud of it. But let me ask you something. You have taken a stand here against a man you believe has disrespected others in certain ways. You claim his kind of disrespect needs to be stopped. And yet in our discourse, one in which I have not attacked you personally, you feel it's ok to just go ahead and not give me the simple respect and human decency you demand in others? Have I about got that right?

Solve' et coagula
Non serviam
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09 Aug 2019 07:01 #341079 by Kelrax Lorcken

VixensVengeance wrote:

Kelrax Lorcken wrote:

VixensVengeance wrote:

Kelrax wrote:
Because I am rude, at times. But- and I think a lot of you will appreciate this- does that actually make me wrong?


Whether you are wrong or not is beside the point. I still want to know if you just called me a shit filled brick wall just because I might disagree with your position?


Just for disagreeing with my position? Nope.

I touched on my actual point in a response I gave to Manu, and I'm starting to think, with more thought on my part, there could actually be a separate, good discussion on that, BUT, you do deserve a response.

First of all... Yeah.

It'd be dishonest of me to try and claim I haven't insulted you, among others. I said it, and I meant it.

I feel it's wrong-headed to dismiss an emotional response in such a way that doesn't even try to understand the response, and in a discussion where one side is trying to defend bodies of work supposedly heavy in psychology, but instead call for dispassionate handling, I think, is counter intuitive, and counter-productive. Like getting someone upset, and than telling them to calm down. Responses and explanations were given, and still there seemed to be a sense of not accepting them as answers, with more "You're doing it wrong, try again" counters. To introduce a subject that is going to invoke emotional responses and arguments, only to discount said responses, is where my "full of shit" remark is coming from. I felt the responses were demanded, but with no real interest in what the responses actually were.

The other part is much simpler- for how the discussion had gone, up to that point, I felt it had gotten to a point where, I can only speak for myself, here, I felt the same discussion could have been had with an actual brick wall. Feeling one sided, and accomplishing nothing.

I doubt this makes anyone feel better, but, you asked, and I won't be dishonest, or intimidated.



Do you think I'm trying to intimidate you? Hmm paranoid as well it seems. I am impressed however, a jedi that actually admits his own hypocracy. You even seem proud of it. But let me ask you something. You have taken a stand here against a man you believe has disrespected others in certain ways. You claim his kind of disrespect needs to be stopped. And yet in our discourse, one in which I have not attacked you personally, you feel it's ok to just go ahead and not give me the simple respect and human decency you demand in others? Have I about got that right?


You express yourself well, here, you're feelings are understood, and justified. Yeah, as I already admitted, I insulted you. That certainly falls under "personal attack", and "ad hominem",

Yeah, I am a little paranoid. I have issues tied up in emotions(part of why I stay here; this place has helped me a lot, but we all know by now I've a ways to go), and I misread your understandable anger (I did insult you, afterall) as hostility for being "challenged", which I than read as an attempt to intimidate me; tone doesn't translate so well, here in cyberspace. I got a little scared, there, and tried to "look big".

Call me hypocrite if you like, the word has lost much of it's meaning over the years. It seems like I REALLY upset you, though, more than I would have expected. I imagine we'd agree, at this point, an apology is in order?

Kelrax "Stormcaller" Lorcken, Jedi Navigator
May The Force Guide You
www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/47-Jo...-stormcaller?start=0

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