IP suggestion: Jordan Peterson

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08 Aug 2019 16:22 #341040 by Manu
Replied by Manu on topic IP suggestion: Jordan Peterson

steamboat28 wrote: Jordan Peterson:
"We've concentrated on rights and privileges and freedom and impulsive pleasure; those are all useful in their place, but they're shallow, and that's not good..."1


The Jordan Peterson quote is not in any way opposed to human rights or freedom. If you watch the video (the same way you included as a reference), the context of what he says is that personal freedoms and pursuing impulses is not enough to build up on as a foundation, and that people hunger for a greater sense of purpose and meaning.

He says things like:

...discussing the gender demographic split of his book sales:

"I don't know. I doubt it, because it's usually women who buy books, although men buy non-fiction if they buy books."1


He's making an observation on the statistics of book-buying behavior. How is that offensive?

He espouses an ideology which vaguely seems to resemble Taoism on the surface, but on deeper examination, is misogynistic. (That men represent order, and women represent chaos, symbolically.1) He then names his book 12 Rules for Life: an Antidote to Chaos and says:

"It’s been a truism among anthropologists and biologically-oriented psychologists for decades that all human societies face two primary tasks: regulation of female reproduction (so the babies don’t die, you see) and male aggression (so that everyone doesn’t die). The social enforcement of monogamy happens to be an effective means of addressing both issues, as most societies have come to realize (pair-bonded marriages constituting, as they do, a human universal..."2

...which is patently, and scientifically verifiably, false. And not just in human society, but also in the social structures of animals. There are many societies and structures in which monogamy is either optional or an unneeded/nonexistent property of relationship.


The same article you cite clearly states he is referencing socially-promoted monogamy rather than "genetic monogamy" (monogamy in nature). So I believe you are objecting to what you think he said rather than what he actually said.


Nellie Bowles stated that "Most of his ideas stem from a gnawing anxiety around gender. 'The masculine spirit is under assault,' he told me. 'It’s obvious.'"3 Later, in the same article (which rugadd posted earlier), Nellie states "Wherever he goes, he speaks in sermons about the inevitability of who we must be. 'You know you can say, "Well isn’t it unfortunate that chaos is represented by the feminine" — well, it might be unfortunate, but it doesn’t matter because that is how it’s represented. It’s been represented like that forever. And there are reasons for it. You can’t change it. It’s not possible. This is underneath everything. If you change those basic categories, people wouldn’t be human anymore. They’d be something else. They’d be transhuman or something. We wouldn’t be able to talk to these new creatures.'"


From what I can gather Peterson is offering an explanation regarding archetypes, which is not tantamount to claiming women are in some way inferior to men because of this representation.

He makes broad claims like "Simply put: monogamous pair bonding makes men less violent,"2 in a day and age where terrorist acts in the US are overwhelmingly committed by people who look just like himself, and then shills this as responsibility training. He preaches this drivel to crowds of people, many of whom are so-called "incels", who've been responsible for increasing violence against women, at least in the US.


So are you arguing that the claim that culturally, monogamy does not lessen male competition (and thus violence)? And how do you make the stretch all the way to making him responsible for domestic terrorist acts?

"Over the past two decades, the incel community, which numbers somewhere in the tens of thousands, has fallen under the sway of a profoundly sexist ideology that they call 'the blackpill.' It amounts to a fundamental rejection of women’s sexual emancipation, labeling women shallow, cruel creatures who will choose only the most attractive men if given the choice."4 In response to this, we get Peterson's solution: "'He was angry at God because women were rejecting him...The cure for that is enforced monogamy. That’s actually why monogamy emerges.'"3


Ok, so here you are quoting an article that writes about him, which, for starters, makes me think his words will already be sort of twisted to try to make the author's point. Upon closer reading, Peterson seems to be making a sociological observation regarding cultural monogamy, competition and violence. And from his following quotes, I gather he is lamenting the fact that female author laughs at the phenomenon of failed males. However, there is no hidden message inciting society to apply some kind of draconian meausure of forced marriages, or something of that sort, which would clearly contradict his repeated assessment that he considers "equality of outcomes" something only possible through totalitarian measures, and completely appalling and counter-productive to society.

Peterson also offers tacit support for another core incel belief. He endorses the idea that some men are being denied sex because other men are taking all the sex from women who are allowed to choose to give them that sex, and that if something could be done to prevent all this 'having sex with people of your choosing' nonsense, some unlucky women would eventually have to settle for the incels. If we could just make that happen, these men would not have to be so 'angry at God' and commit mass murder, the argument goes.[/i]5


Again, some third-party's twisted opinion of what Peterson thinks. Peterson has not actually suggested any of this.

This is a guy we want in the IP? Find some other self-help guru. One that says the same inane bullshit but isn't a huge, honking, more-red-flags-than-a-Communist-parade problem.


It is precisely the reactions he provokes that I believe would bring value to the IP. He is very admitedly politically incorrect.

Being able to actually read (or listen) to Peterson and make sense of what he actually says (rather than get trapped in a biased version of what people "think" he says) would be of good intellectual value, possibly putting a Novice outside of their comfort zone, and at the same time being an exercise in objectivity to avoid falling pray to the same sensationalism that has become the norm in online interactions nowadays, and that is much more responsible for tribalism and violence than whatever Peterson has ever said.

If your compassion does not include yourself, it is incomplete.

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08 Aug 2019 17:08 - 08 Aug 2019 17:12 #341042 by Phoenix Vidensia

Bru-He WiEph wrote: I only heard this Peterson guy mentioned once before, and that was this morning. Now I'm looking him up, and reading what he has to say. While some of what he says is just plain common sense, I can't sit here reading the drivel he spews about women.

Why would we want to include the teachings of someone who is so anti-feminist? Are you trying to drive women away? Jediism is about equality among humans, last time I checked.

Speaking as a woman and a feminist, if this guy's teachings became part of the IP, I would ditch it. If individuals want to follow him, that's their choice. But such an extreme view doesn't belong in the IP.


Personally, I think reading material which rubs you the wrong way is beneficial. If you’re reactive especially, since the question which follows an angry outburst is “why” one feels this way.

Ask yourself this... can’t you just go enjoy reading “Catcher in the Rye” without being triggered by a racial slur? Can’t you just go enjoy history and its many monuments, without being personally offended?

If the author in question here is anti feminist, does this negate the value of his teachings? If so, I think you all just need to close your eyes, find a dark room with fluffy things and live there... forever. Unless the darkness offends you in which case, perhaps a nice white padded one instead? Humor, by the way. Humor.

... Meh ...
Last edit: 08 Aug 2019 17:12 by Phoenix Vidensia. Reason: No apostrophe
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08 Aug 2019 18:45 #341044 by steamboat28
Y'know what? I've been here for eleven years. And I've been arguing passionately for the last 7 that we should better ourselves as a group, not just as individuals. I've picked a lot of battles, and I've lost most of them, but not for lack of trying.

This thread, though? This is the best Jedi have to offer? Lukewarm support for a misogynist and transphobe intentionally because it ruffles feathers?

This, then, is my line in the sand. This is my hill. Take your Temple and drive it straight into the ground. I'm done.
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08 Aug 2019 18:59 #341045 by Manu
Replied by Manu on topic IP suggestion: Jordan Peterson

steamboat28 wrote: Y'know what? I've been here for eleven years. And I've been arguing passionately for the last 7 that we should better ourselves as a group, not just as individuals. I've picked a lot of battles, and I've lost most of them, but not for lack of trying.

This thread, though? This is the best Jedi have to offer? Lukewarm support for a misogynist and transphobe intentionally because it ruffles feathers?

This, then, is my line in the sand. This is my hill. Take your Temple and drive it straight into the ground. I'm done.


Wouldn’t “betterment” include avoiding making unsubstantiated accusations regarding a person’s character?

I am sure many things that would better this Temple would not mesh with my personal political agenda, but you won’t see me storming out because of it.

If your compassion does not include yourself, it is incomplete.

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08 Aug 2019 19:09 - 08 Aug 2019 19:13 #341046 by Phoenix Vidensia

steamboat28 wrote: Y'know what? I've been here for eleven years. And I've been arguing passionately for the last 7 that we should better ourselves as a group, not just as individuals. I've picked a lot of battles, and I've lost most of them, but not for lack of trying.

This thread, though? This is the best Jedi have to offer? Lukewarm support for a misogynist and transphobe intentionally because it ruffles feathers?

This, then, is my line in the sand. This is my hill. Take your Temple and drive it straight into the ground. I'm done.


Ugh, everyone is so offended these days... by everything. Try growing up? Is that a Jedi trait? If not, it needs to be. Homophobic? Transphobic? Come off it! I doubt these writers FEARED trans and gay people. Even if so, SO WHAT?! That’s them, you’re you. Don’t like it? Lose out and don’t read it. Seriously! I don’t care if the author is a transphobic, racist, homophobic Scientologist! If I want to read it or have it assigned, I’ll read it! Goodness you people!

... Meh ...
Last edit: 08 Aug 2019 19:13 by Phoenix Vidensia.

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08 Aug 2019 19:16 - 08 Aug 2019 19:17 #341047 by Manu
Replied by Manu on topic IP suggestion: Jordan Peterson

Tempest Nox wrote: Ugh, everyone is so offended these days... by everything. Try growing up? Is that a Jedi trait? If not, it needs to be. Homophobic? Transphobic? Come off it! I doubt these writers FEARED trans and gay people. Even if so, SO WHAT?! That’s them, you’re you. Don’t like it? Lose out and don’t read it.


I doubt this approach is bound to be well received, Phoenix. Mind the terms of use .

Transphobia is incompatible with our Doctrine. The issue here is that I cannot definitively conclude that Jordan Peterson is in fact transphobic, as in all his interviews he clearly states he is opposed to being compelled by law to use pronouns, but repeatedly states he has no problem with transpeople, and is completely civil and conversational, even when the interview he is in includes transpeople.

If your compassion does not include yourself, it is incomplete.

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Last edit: 08 Aug 2019 19:17 by Manu.
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08 Aug 2019 19:20 - 08 Aug 2019 19:23 #341048 by VixensVengeance aka Kyrin Wyldstar

steamboat28 wrote: Y'know what? I've been here for eleven years. And I've been arguing passionately for the last 7 that we should better ourselves as a group, not just as individuals. I've picked a lot of battles, and I've lost most of them, but not for lack of trying.

This thread, though? This is the best Jedi have to offer? Lukewarm support for a misogynist and transphobe intentionally because it ruffles feathers?

This, then, is my line in the sand. This is my hill. Take your Temple and drive it straight into the ground. I'm done.


I would like to make a suggestion here. I think you might be conflating some very leftist sort of views with the otherwise inclusive philosophy of this place in a very reactionary way. Demanding your view be adopted or you quit is rather childish and really unfounded in this context. In fact much of what Peterson speaks about is very much in line with the ideas this place seems to put forth in its doctrinal ideas about The Force. It seems you have ignored this idea and instead inserted some very biased opinion that there is really no evidence for. Case in point to support these ideas are the series of discussions Peterson had with Sam Harris. I will include the first one here for your consumption. I think the ideas he puts out in these discussions are some of the most profound and cogent arguments ever created about the nature of myth and the belief in some form of realm beyond the physical.


Solve' et coagula
Non serviam
Last edit: 08 Aug 2019 19:23 by VixensVengeance aka Kyrin Wyldstar.
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08 Aug 2019 19:39 #341049 by Phoenix Vidensia
If the material openly promotes “X” forbidden thing, it’s a TOS violation. If an author is “X”, it’s not a violation.

Also, you’re right. He is unlikely transphobic but I knew that when I replied here.

... Meh ...

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08 Aug 2019 20:01 #341050 by VixensVengeance aka Kyrin Wyldstar

Tempest Nox wrote: If the material openly promotes “X” forbidden thing, it’s a TOS violation. If an author is “X”, it’s not a violation.

Also, you’re right. He is unlikely transphobic but I knew that when I replied here.



This whole discussion is another example of Godwins Law. If a liberal does not like an opinion of another, then call them a misogynist and a transphobe.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Solve' et coagula
Non serviam
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08 Aug 2019 21:03 #341052 by Phoenix Vidensia

VixensVengeance wrote:

Tempest Nox wrote: If the material openly promotes “X” forbidden thing, it’s a TOS violation. If an author is “X”, it’s not a violation.

Also, you’re right. He is unlikely transphobic but I knew that when I replied here.



This whole discussion is another example of Godwins Law. If a liberal does not like an opinion of another, then call them a misogynist and a transphobe.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Oh, it gets weirder...

Such people can say what they want. They can express their offence, scream and bawl it even. However, if anyone dares even question their position, let alone disagree, they will call such people foul names, dehumanize, and carry on until the person is silenced by some method. If it’s online? They carry on until the person is banned. Offline? They render them jobless, hated... Ect. I’ve seen this happen too many times and to too many people.

I openly detest Leftism.

... Meh ...
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