Force Powers

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22 Nov 2019 17:17 - 22 Nov 2019 17:39 #345931 by OB1Shinobi
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic Force Powers

ZealotX wrote:
Yes, absolutely!

And I think we too often, because we separate them, fail to see the politics behind it. We fail to see how they USE God and the bible in order to gain power. But if you look at history it should be somewhat obvious.
....
It is about POWER. Always. Understand this. That's why we have separation between church and state because state is afraid, rightfully so, of the church. Because the honest truth is that the institution of every church in the Mosaic tradition, is designed to rule the nation. That is the underlying subconscious directive even if people don't consciously grasp this truth.



Christians today dont usually realize the politics behind the development and spread of Christianity and I agree with most of the specific points you raise. I think it would be inaccurate to lump everyone in the early Church as being driven by thirst for power, however. I dont know if thats what you intend to say but it appears that way from the wording. But yeah, the whole Constantine just suddenly converting and then having to "save" the rest of the world was....something to look closely at, lol

The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down in order to feel it’s warmth.
-supposedly an African proverb.
Last edit: 22 Nov 2019 17:39 by OB1Shinobi.

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22 Nov 2019 19:36 #345939 by steamboat28
Replied by steamboat28 on topic Force Powers

Rex wrote: Off the top of my head, 2 Tim 3:16
"All scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness so that the man of God will be thoroughly equipped..."


See, I read that as just "The Scripture helps build us up and prepare us," not "take this book literally."

In context, the vast majority of this scripture was written by and for a storytelling people. Sure, there are bits that line up with history, and sure there are bits like Proverbs and Ecclesiastes that are to be taken more literally than others, but on the whole it's just a book of multi-layered allegories and metaphors.

No religion of this age started as something to be taken literally, it's just that fundamentalists demand that interpreting it so is the only proper way. Which is very false.

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22 Nov 2019 22:38 #345945 by Rex
Replied by Rex on topic Force Powers
If you guys read the second half of my post explaining the example, that'd help

For the specific example I gave, it's discussing both the fact that it's inspired by God (so no it's not like Christians believe God is just a really prolific author for kicks and giggles), and the fact that it has value in use. There are allegories which some people dispute, and again I think there is a point for agnosticism on the case specificity of certain teachings. But the modality of quite a few teachings precludes saying "oh that cut and dry command is really just an allegory."
I mean what is the whole pentateuch an allegory for? (There actually are some overarching themes, but dismissing the whole as figurative is a weak argument)

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TM: Carlos Martinez
ὁ δὲ ἀμυχηδόν νεξέταστος βίος γίγνομαι βιωτὸς ἀνθρώπῳ

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22 Nov 2019 22:44 #345946 by Rosalyn J
Replied by Rosalyn J on topic Force Powers
I did actually read your whole post a few times to make sure I understood. It's not clear that "God inspired" is meant to be seen as literal according to what I understood the Greek meaning of the word translated to mean
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23 Nov 2019 04:32 #345950 by Rex
Replied by Rex on topic Force Powers
Yes, you brought up a good point I didn't quite sufficiently address here. Sorry, I hope I didn't come across angrily there.

Some people take God breathed to mean that God is somewhere up in the clouds whispering to people exactly what to write down like some sort of micromanaging editor. I hinged my analysis of how seriously we take that passage off of the "useful" clause (and the context of the verse), given that it's kinda weird to correct someone's understanding of an allegory with an allegory.

At any rate, I'm adapting an old paper on textual criticism to discuss the Bible (I may throw in a second part discussing Hinduism as well since that's an interesting comparison and I'm relatively better versed in several Vedic texts). So whenever I'm not working, I'll be working on a hermeneutics (with extra nerdiness) reference post to explain my understanding (with lots of help from some of my friends who've gone to seminary)

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TM: Carlos Martinez
ὁ δὲ ἀμυχηδόν νεξέταστος βίος γίγνομαι βιωτὸς ἀνθρώπῳ
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23 Nov 2019 10:16 - 23 Nov 2019 10:18 #345953 by Erinis
Replied by Erinis on topic Force Powers
The question is, why do you want to learn telekinesis?
First of all, if you could do it, for sure you probably won't use it for ordinary things.
Secondly; next option is, that some people want to impress others.
Third point; some people want through it to harm or destroy someone. (Maybe save life, but It's more common for movies)

I would say, that if you want to learn this (if It's possible), go and achieve some of your
biggest dream (=biggest fear, out of comfort zone).
Because that is exactly the power you need. For achieve you need lot of persistence and will.
#achieve, manipulation, control, clear jugement

- but funny is, that when you achieve all your goals and dreams, you become happy and fully in charge/control of your own life. So for what is good to know this.

Do what thou wilt!

- Be pheonix, who rise from ashes -


Last edit: 23 Nov 2019 10:18 by Erinis.
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23 Nov 2019 11:43 #345957 by steamboat28
Replied by steamboat28 on topic Force Powers
My issue isn't whether these powers exist, but my stance that, even if they did, you wouldn't learn them here because it isn't what we teach here.
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23 Nov 2019 14:40 - 23 Nov 2019 14:46 #345959 by Gisteron
Replied by Gisteron on topic Force Powers
Almost completely agree with steamboat here. TOTJO has for years emphasized that this is not the kind of place it is. Sure enough we have believers and doubters of all sorts here and we welcome them all to come and to stay, to share their experiences, and their opinions, and to discuss them with all the rest. But any teachings of this sort one might find users or even members of TOTJO offer are not officially endorsed by the Temple, for better, or for worse.

Personally, while I appreciate TOTJO's deliberate neutrality on the issue, I happen to believe that there is a positive case to be made one direction over the other.
The very first of Seneca's letters to Lucilius is about the preciousness of time. It is a general message both about living in the now (something our Watts loving brethren can no doubt appreciate) and about cherishing our gifts and earnings. The sixteenth of those same letters instructs Lucilius to be ever vigilant, first among all things against oneself. It advises the student to keep scrutinizing themselves, never to trust that they had already learned it all. It goes on to say that philosophy for its own sake is vapid and pointless if life does not reflect the lessons one preaches on after hearing them oneself.
At least in my interpretation, stoicism is a strong inspirer of Jedi philosophy. In fiction and in Jediist literature alike we find the same reminders, about being mindful of the present over the times that have passed and the ones that are yet to draw near. We find the same advice about being mindful of the risks and opportunities of life, remember to try and make the best move forward, but to stay humble about how far we have come and mindful of our biases. Finally we are taught to actually make those choices in real life above and beyond merely preaching how to make them to others, as if wisdom begins and ends with knowing when to speak a platitude.

Jediism, thus, in my humble opinion, is pragmatic, among other things. It is not about experiencing brief gusts of warm emotion. It is about making choices, making a difference, living not in serfdom of our masters, lest of all our personal gods, but in service of our fellows, and our own good and theirs.
No matter the skills one has acquired or aspires to eventually, Jediism can - and most our versions of it does - welcome all, but I would go far enough to say that the skills encouraged by Jediism are the ones that actually can make some sort of impact beyond just fuzzy feelings within ourselves. I can appreciate even meditation for its calming and relaxing effects and how those may impact productivity in the day (though I do think it was somewhat over-emphasized during my early studies here, can't speak to how it is now) but activities that have shown none of the promised non-trivial effects to any significant degree I have a really hard time justifying from a Jediist perspective. Training oneself to chant or to concentrate really hard in the hopes of acquiring powers everything we know about nature tells us are impossible is a waste of our time, and teaching it to others is at best innocent deceit, and at worst malicious one. This is not about personal experiences or their respective value, mind you. If someone says they are getting something soothing out of it, that's fine, I'm not here to tell them that they cannot. But if they say they get to contact interdimensional beings or breathe some spirit of the universe or project into realms and levels hitherto unwalked or what ever else, only to then slowly and annoyingly make it ever more evident that they do not have anything substantive to show for it, that is when they are wasting our time and their own and I don't think that the Jedi Code, despite what by some interpretation might be read as a direct reference of the Force as the undiscovered country, really pushes us to much patience for this sort of nonsense.

Last edit: 23 Nov 2019 14:46 by Gisteron.
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23 Nov 2019 15:07 - 23 Nov 2019 15:08 #345960 by steamboat28
Replied by steamboat28 on topic Force Powers
Gisteron has the right of it, and I agree with his argument despite being at odds with the conclusion he reached. It may be that he also forgets the power of a placebo.
Last edit: 23 Nov 2019 15:08 by steamboat28. Reason: Clarity
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23 Nov 2019 15:54 - 23 Nov 2019 17:24 #345966 by OB1Shinobi
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic Force Powers
Ive seen and experienced nothing that gives me the slightest hope for powers such as telekinesis or pyrokinesis or levitation. Or the transmutation of one type of matter into another or the ability to physically teleport from one place to another. Powers this fantastical are the stuff of comic books, video games, and stories about things like wizards and dragons. That being said, I found out years ago that constant meditation, energy work, efforts at lucid dreaming, playing practicing/attempting thought transference with girlfriends made me quite a bit more aware of other peoples intentions and internal movements. To the point that i thought their thoughts aka “read their minds” though i lol as i write this. I learned that we can perceive other peoples attention, even over distances, and that focusing our attention on others can sometimes affect them in ways that... are hard to explain. Ive had moments of intuition where i knew things that i had no logical way of knowing.

I dont battle to prove any of this is true because that battle isnt important, to me. I suspect that most or at least many people could confirm it for themselves if they would do enough of the correct kind of work. I also dont claim to know for sure how this happens.... i believe that attention is a form of energy that we can perceive- meaning (i assume) that it must have some property we can regard as physical in some way, but i really don't know. What i do maintain with confidence is that we have innate perceptual capabilities that are far more sensitive than is widely recognized. Perhaps they are associated with our “lower” brain areas aka those which preceded the capacity for speech or “advanced” logic or perhaps there really is some as of yet unidentified “mystical” energy field that permeates life and binds us all together? Im not claiming to know.

What i personally object to is the complete dismissal of logic and critical thinking, scientific literacy, consideration of feedback and just basic HONESTY that i see in the various topics and discussions that have been happening, lately. There is work a person can do to enhance their sensory capabilities at least in some small ways; if you want the answers, do the work. But just making up a bunch of fantasies based on what you wish were true or repeating something that you believe is someone elses experience as if it were your own are clear cut signs that youre being way too much of, for lack of a better word, a goofball.

The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down in order to feel it’s warmth.
-supposedly an African proverb.
Last edit: 23 Nov 2019 17:24 by OB1Shinobi.
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