What would help the Temple Be A Better Place? Suggestions please...

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11 Jul 2017 16:09 #290303 by Manu

Avalonslight wrote: Regarding IP Completion Before Membership:

I'll reiterate what I've said before. We've never required obtaining rank in order to be a member of the Temple and I don't think we should start doing so now. Like someone else said, the only thing that that stands to do is turn away legitimate potential members who just currently don't have the time to finish a rather extensive training program. And further, if this is decided upon, then there are boards which are currently restricted to members only that need to be reopened back up to guests, because that would take away a lot of conversations that generalized members take place in, and would no longer be able to. So no, I don't think this is the best course of action.


For the person joining, what meaning does it hold to become an official member if they have not done the IP, which helps understand the basics of what this site is? A flashy "Jedi" title?

For TOTJO as an organization, what meaning does it hold to have virtual strangers pledging to be a Jedi and a member, if the person joining has not gone through the basics to see if they are serious about it. Are we trying to artificially inflate our numbers for some reason?

I agree with opening up the forums to Guests. There is no reason to drive away input from newcomers. Just don't let then commit to membership until they prove they actually want it, and it means something to them.

By the way, I do not consider "Initiate" a rank. It simply states you know what Jediism is about.

A long time ago the Simple Vow was required for membership. I did it back then, but I found it odd that they would request my personal information so soon. In hindsight, it seems odd how overly eager I was to pledge to being a Jedi as well. I know the Simple Vow is gone now, but the principle remains: why pledge to being a member if you haven't done the prep work?

Problems that remain persistently insoluble should always be suspected as questions asked in the wrong way - Alan Watts

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11 Jul 2017 16:26 #290307 by SamThift

Manu wrote:

Avalonslight wrote: Regarding IP Completion Before Membership:

I'll reiterate what I've said before. We've never required obtaining rank in order to be a member of the Temple and I don't think we should start doing so now. Like someone else said, the only thing that that stands to do is turn away legitimate potential members who just currently don't have the time to finish a rather extensive training program. And further, if this is decided upon, then there are boards which are currently restricted to members only that need to be reopened back up to guests, because that would take away a lot of conversations that generalized members take place in, and would no longer be able to. So no, I don't think this is the best course of action.


For the person joining, what meaning does it hold to become an official member if they have not done the IP, which helps understand the basics of what this site is? A flashy "Jedi" title?

For TOTJO as an organization, what meaning does it hold to have virtual strangers pledging to be a Jedi and a member, if the person joining has not gone through the basics to see if they are serious about it. Are we trying to artificially inflate our numbers for some reason?

I agree with opening up the forums to Guests. There is no reason to drive away input from newcomers. Just don't let then commit to membership until they prove they actually want it, and it means something to them.

By the way, I do not consider "Initiate" a rank. It simply states you know what Jediism is about.

A long time ago the Simple Vow was required for membership. I did it back then, but I found it odd that they would request my personal information so soon. In hindsight, it seems odd how overly eager I was to pledge to being a Jedi as well. I know the Simple Vow is gone now, but the principle remains: why pledge to being a member if you haven't done the prep work?


I suppose that I could attest here that although having submitted my "application" for membership, and begun work on the IP (finishing up Lesson 1), the shift away from a mere "guest" tag to a "member" tag is nice...and shifting to "novice" would be nice...but in the end, I would continue forward with the rest of the IP anyway if full membership and such were not available until I completed that.

It may actually inspire me more to keep working through it if I simply remained a "guest" until I finished it...just me though!

Perhaps that helps separate the occasional account creation/curious type from those who actually get into the material, stick with it, and get through the IP all the way?

If keeping "guest" and "member" tags on the table for now...maybe a simple "OVERVIEW" brief or lesson on the Temple could be accomplished in a PowerPoint format or Video from a member of the Council...explaining and detailing some of the primary tenets and doctrine and what it means to them and what would be expected of a "member"....or at least an outline of what the path and experience here could be? Keep it relatively simple, and somewhat short (don't have to sell any secrets or tip any hands), but also have enough meat and potatoes that it could constitute an actual "lesson" while also giving people a concise upfront understanding of what the Temple is all about instead of just directing them to the FAQ and Doctrine, and saying, "Well, start the IP".

This way a "guest" who pokes around on the site enough, toys with the chats, and decides they are interested enough to keep going could get a clearer idea of what its all about before submitting their application to be a member and/or starting the IP? Make the presentation/video mandatory, and require a quick write-up/essay as part of the membership application to prove they watched/understood it, and get their basic attitude towards beginning the path on record so they can reflect on it later. Then unlock the IP when they have made that commitment?

Honestly, the IP so far, while extremely eye-opening, and interesting enough to keep me coming in...is not quite what I would have expected to see starting off, and almost kinda feels like you are just tossed right into stuff without a ton of "framing" or "context". Which I get could be the point, or intentional, or something...but a tad more front-end explanation or at the minimum a generalized version of what one's experience may start to look like could be extremely helpful in sifting out those interested in the Temple and those not, without just pointing people to the FAQ and IP and "PM me if you have any questions"...

Just some thoughts....hopefully coherent enough, and relevant...

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11 Jul 2017 16:47 #290309 by Avalon

Manu wrote:

Avalonslight wrote: Regarding IP Completion Before Membership:

I'll reiterate what I've said before. We've never required obtaining rank in order to be a member of the Temple and I don't think we should start doing so now. Like someone else said, the only thing that that stands to do is turn away legitimate potential members who just currently don't have the time to finish a rather extensive training program. And further, if this is decided upon, then there are boards which are currently restricted to members only that need to be reopened back up to guests, because that would take away a lot of conversations that generalized members take place in, and would no longer be able to. So no, I don't think this is the best course of action.


For the person joining, what meaning does it hold to become an official member if they have not done the IP, which helps understand the basics of what this site is? A flashy "Jedi" title?

For TOTJO as an organization, what meaning does it hold to have virtual strangers pledging to be a Jedi and a member, if the person joining has not gone through the basics to see if they are serious about it. Are we trying to artificially inflate our numbers for some reason?

I agree with opening up the forums to Guests. There is no reason to drive away input from newcomers. Just don't let then commit to membership until they prove they actually want it, and it means something to them.

By the way, I do not consider "Initiate" a rank. It simply states you know what Jediism is about.

A long time ago the Simple Vow was required for membership. I did it back then, but I found it odd that they would request my personal information so soon. In hindsight, it seems odd how overly eager I was to pledge to being a Jedi as well. I know the Simple Vow is gone now, but the principle remains: why pledge to being a member if you haven't done the prep work?


"Membership" means something different to everyone, but it's important to remember first and foremost that this is a "church" (for all we're also discussing if 'church' is in fact the right word or not in a different thread). If a person comes through, is serious about the beliefs (IE - homepage) and the Doctrine speaks to them, why should they not be allowed to join because they simply haven't got the time currently to engage in a training program (children, school, work, deployed, etc etc etc)? And again, the IP is an extensive program. Yes, some people are able to get through it in a few months, but others - myself included - take a year or two to get to that point, and some even longer still. The membership is a membership to the 'church' not to the ranks; the IP program is a step towards the ranks. We've never even required someone to obtain rank before. If someone comes along and says "look I believe in this and it speaks to me, but I don't want to be a knight or a senior member, so I'm just going to be a regular member" then they should be able to do that.

Remember, for some, 'membership' is simply about a sense of belonging where they feel a common connection. Start requiring a training program just to be a member, and you deprive some of that belonging. We've never taken a punitive or exclusionary stances towards those who cannot make the commitment to that training program, or simply would rather be participants within the 'church' rather than moving through the ranks of the 'church'. I honestly feel like doing so would be a step in the wrong direction. Doing so could also begin to appear like we're moving in a cult-like direction, at the risk of potentially soundly overly and unnecessarily alarmist. But of all of this is just my opinion. I simply don't want us to move towards a pattern of excluding people, and that's my bigger worry of them all when it comes to this suggestion.




@Connor, I know :) I was just throwing out thoughts to keep in mind when considering such a program. Figured the random questions would get people thinking about how it might look, if we ever decided to include that.

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11 Jul 2017 17:25 - 11 Jul 2017 17:32 #290314 by Edan
As an addendum to what Avalon has said, the people that would be excluded from membership were the IP a requirement would include:

- Anyone who works long hours with no little time to study
- Anyone with learning difficulties who struggles with study
- The kids whose reading level is not advanced enough to do the IP (most kids do not do the IP)
- Anyone for whom English is not a first language and they are not proficient in English...

Etc. etc... these are only examples.

Many established members of this temple took a long time to do the IP, would anyone for whom it takes long keep going if they knew that they may never get there and that they will be penalised for it?

We are practising Jedi, not perfect Jedi - Master Jestor
Last edit: 11 Jul 2017 17:32 by Edan.
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11 Jul 2017 17:36 #290316 by Br. John
I am reading every one of the posts in this thread and will continue to do so. There are some ideas The Council will propose too.

Something that I don't think many know is that not everyone on The Council has a vote. They can participate in discussions and give advice. I'm asking that they put Council Emeritus in their signatures.

The original poster that started this thread is such an one.

Every idea proposed here will be listed and considered.

An idea I have is adding several Knights to The Council as Council Emeritus. I've even thought of having a well performing Apprentice to represent that group.

Every proposal will get it's day at least as being seriously considered. Where there are obstacles they will be explained as well as how they can be overcome.

Founder of The Order
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11 Jul 2017 19:03 #290341 by tzb
Thank you for listening.

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11 Jul 2017 19:15 #290343 by ren
I think a church shouldn't force "bible study" on its members. But in totjo's case the IP isn't "doctrine study" (although maybe it ought to be), so I really do not see why members should have to go through it.

Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.
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11 Jul 2017 19:20 #290345 by Manu

Edan wrote: As an addendum to what Avalon has said, the people that would be excluded from membership were the IP a requirement would include:

- Anyone who works long hours with no little time to study
- Anyone with learning difficulties who struggles with study
- The kids whose reading level is not advanced enough to do the IP (most kids do not do the IP)
- Anyone for whom English is not a first language and they are not proficient in English...

Etc. etc... these are only examples.

Many established members of this temple took a long time to do the IP, would anyone for whom it takes long keep going if they knew that they may never get there and that they will be penalised for it?


What is the penalization?

Handing out membership as participation trophies sets a bad example, but that is of course my opinion.

I took over 6 years to complete the IP. I started in 2010, left, then came back and finished it in 2016.

There is no time limit on the IP. There is no way to fail it. Why shouldn't it be basic reading before becoming an official member of an organization? Unless of course, membership is meaningless. Then you can hand it out to anyone who wants to be "part" of something they haven't even taken time to understand.

Problems that remain persistently insoluble should always be suspected as questions asked in the wrong way - Alan Watts

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11 Jul 2017 19:20 #290346 by Tellahane

ren wrote: I think a church shouldn't force "bible study" on its members. But in totjo's case the IP isn't "doctrine study" (although maybe it ought to be), so I really do not see why members should have to go through it.


One could argue that the point of joining and becoming a member of the church is to study said "bible". In addition to being apart of its community of course.

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11 Jul 2017 19:23 #290347 by Edan

Tellahane wrote:

ren wrote: I think a church shouldn't force "bible study" on its members. But in totjo's case the IP isn't "doctrine study" (although maybe it ought to be), so I really do not see why members should have to go through it.


One could argue that the point of joining and becoming a member of the church is to study said "bible". In addition to being apart of its community of course.


The foundation of jediism is not the doctrine, we don't have a 'bible equivalent'. I would argue that jediism is more about learning from others, which requires no IP.

We are practising Jedi, not perfect Jedi - Master Jestor
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