Joseph Campbell is awful

  • Twigga
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13 Nov 2018 06:01 - 13 Nov 2018 06:08 #329104 by Twigga
Replied by Twigga on topic Joseph Campbell is awful
For those of us on IP 1.0, will our stuff be transferrable into the 2.0 version?

(Tbh what I'm doing is probably IP version 7, but who is really counting?)
Last edit: 13 Nov 2018 06:08 by Twigga.

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  • ReallyRiver
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13 Nov 2018 12:17 - 13 Nov 2018 12:18 #329114 by ReallyRiver
Replied by ReallyRiver on topic Joseph Campbell is awful
I like him. I don't necessarily believe all the same things he does, but he's thought about them and is relatively articulate in explaining his thoughts. Even if I totally disagree with an idea I love the moment of "Oh! Wow! I learned a thing that other people believe and it's fascinating how that belief could inform actions!" I'm a naturally very curious person so for me time/energy gaining knowledge is never wasted.

To me he doesn't come across as arrogant or anything, at least not much. I mean, the only context I've seen him is, is stuff like the assigned materials where he's totally designed to be there star and topic and expert and all that; it's not his fault he's the subject of these studies.

As for his education level, I totally don't care what paperwork he has. I don't believe that someone's level of formal education means anything about what they know or don't know. Some people with high degrees seem to have shared by on a wing and a prayer and some lazy professors, and some of the most rational, deep thinking, informed people I know have no formal education beyond high school.

Maybe it's a sign of my own mental weaknesses or something, but I enjoy the Campbell material.
Last edit: 13 Nov 2018 12:18 by ReallyRiver.

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17 Dec 2018 16:40 #331139 by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic Joseph Campbell is awful
I'm loving the IP so far.

For anyone not loving it, you need to know that's okay. We're like snowflakes in that no 2 of us are the same, nor should we be.

I grew up in a religion that was kind of force fed intravenously; where you could only disagree privately. I left that religion because I disagreed with a couple of their core tenants. And at least one of those had changed over time from the view of the original founders.

In short, it is easy to get sucked into thinking that you must be assimilated into the collective but if you accept everything you hear are you really learning? Or are you just being programmed? Can the two be the same thing? Sometimes the answers are not as important as the questions.

Yes, when I started listening to Alan Watts (audio book) it started off great and a little Jedi (instead of an angel) on my shoulder was like "let's not be critical just because you heard something you disagree with because if your mind is too defense it can't be open to new ideas. Maybe he's right. Maybe he's asserting his own biases but you have your own biases too." But when he started rubbing me the wrong way I called it out in my journal.

I think it's great. I love being challenged by ideas. The important thing is that they come from a sincere and intellectual place. I think Watts has an extremist philosophical view point that tries deny reality but... a Jedi should be able to have intellectual discussions and respectfully disagree while being open minded. I think the key is being open minded. If you give the author a chance then after that whatever you disagree with is part of the journey.

Going through the content, some may rush through because they're trying to get to a particular end or position or title. But I feel like it's the journey that's important. I hope one day I'll write something worthy of being argued against by great Jedi minds. But disagreement with the IP is something I find to be very healthy and a welcome change from my former religion.
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11 Nov 2019 15:51 #345401 by phillyr
Replied by phillyr on topic Joseph Campbell is awful
This was a great discussion to read and really helped me feel better about some of the things that were dragging me down about this Campbell section of the IP, thank you Paschal!!!!!!!! And thank you to everyone who participated.

I agree that Campbell is kind of a blowhard. There is merit to finding themes and tropes that run through myths of all communities -- it helps us understand that all humanity is very similar in many ways. But cultural erasure is an inevitable outcome of that.

I'm glad, therefore, that Campbell is the FIRST part of the IP. Rip the bandaid off and get it out of the way. Someday I hope we in the TOTJO can have built up enough of our own original content to no longer need the Campbell section of the IP, but in our temple's infancy, there is an obvious need to base our courses on SOMETHING.

I'm gritting my teeth trying to get through Campbell for the same reasons that Paschal listed. But I know at the end it will have been worth it to have the language to be able to expand on my own thoughts on the matters that Campbell discusses, which deviate from his considerably.

I feel more comfortable, after reading this, being a bit more critical of Campbell in my journal going forward.

What a great thread! Thank you!

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12 Nov 2019 18:34 #345452 by Lykeios Little Raven
The more I study and learn about other cultures' mythologies the more I find I agree with your analysis.

I used to adore, not so much. You're right. He oversimplifies, makes egregious errors in both thinking and interpretation, and is so vague and general so as to be fairly insulting and dismissive.

That being said... Yea...uhhh, idk how "nuanced" the biblical story of Christ's death and resurrection is. Maybe I'm showing my bias against Christian theology and dogma here, but to seems pretty frigging straightforward with only the details being different. And even IF it is "nuanced" and "subtle" and what? The overall story and meaning remains the same. Just my opinion though. I mean, to me...a dying God myth is a dying God myth. Yea, they take on different cultural connotations and interpretations, but I've always found the Christian stories about it to be...clunky, boring, and heavy-handed. (Not trying to offend anyone...just my two cents, feel free to point out why I'm wrong if you like.)

Other than that, though, yea, you're absolutely right. Campbell is pretty awful and basically racist.

“Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly, dreaming I am a man.” -Zhuangzi

“Though, as the crusade presses on, I find myself altogether incapable of staying here in saftey while others shed their blood for such a noble and just cause. For surely must the Almighty be with us even in the sundering of our nation. Our fight is for freedom, for liberty, and for all the principles upon which that aforementioned nation was built.” - Patrick “Madman of Galway” O'Dell

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17 May 2021 12:22 #360215 by Vincent Causse
Oh boy, i m coming into this discutions a few years too late! Personally i was surprised that my way of thinking is so very similar than Joseph Campbell and Alan watts , well i m only at the starts of Alan Watts but the Self and Ego are really an eye opener, i ve been wondering why humans have always failed living on earth (beside some few rare tribes) and what could be some form of solution, seen that not one politic type ever worked. So basically Alan Watts explains the reason pretty well. The truth about the human race is not always pretty and not everyone can take it. We have been told for centuries, that we are the masters of the planet but it s always been a great mistake. Now i admit that some of the thing that those too men explain are a little bit out there for me, my brain has limitations, they are really on a very different level. But right now all i want is finding their books.
We are all the same but different.
May the force be with you
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17 May 2021 13:18 #360217 by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic Joseph Campbell is awful
That's why I really like the Avatar movie.

I liked how the Na'vi saw themselves as part of and as children of Eywa ("the guiding force").

Eywa is the guiding force and deity of Pandora and the Na'vi. The Na'vi believe that Eywa acts to keep the ecosystem of Pandora in perfect equilibrium. -

The connections to Eywa were physical to some extent, because of the antennae that they could link up, but it was also spiritual because Eywa didn't need to physically connect to the animals.

Humans were the antagonists, an alien force, forcefully occupying Pandora and taking whatever they wanted through military force. And of course, in their minds, was the idea that might=right; that they had a right to take and take and take because they had the means to do so and get away with it.

The natives called them demons and yet they were still willing to befriend and love but only if the humans would learn their ways; not for the sake of coercing some kind of conformity, but to because if they were going to live there they needed to understand the planet and their spiritual connections.

But humans were very immature while at the same time treating anyone without their technology as if they were savages. But lacking in technology, not wearing the same clothes, not having the same traditions, etc. These are not what makes someone a savage. It is a mindset that doesn't care about the cost. The humans weren't even taking life for the sake of survival. They were like a virus. That's how we are when we don't respect nature. We are supposed to be balanced with it. We are supposed to be connected to it. In our ancient rituals, we can see that but we've gotten away from it to the point where think our machines make us superior.

But at the end of the day we're still just biological organisms that resemble the planet we live on: hair, skin, bones, blood vessels, respiration, etc.

The Na'vi never got "too big" in their heads because they all knew that no matter what they accomplished, Eywa was much larger and so they could always keep themselves in perspective. We too... need to keep ourselves in perspective. Having an understanding of the Force can do that for us, just as Eywa did it for the Na'vi.
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17 May 2021 13:29 #360219 by Vincent Causse
Yes to all you said, so it is or the human specie is immature or simply crazy, we are capable do destroy all for the sake of our own expansion, not to call it survival because it is not anymore. We do suffer of some sort of hallucination that make us this way, it creates a riff between us and nature, the ultimate paranoïa! And of course it s friend : denial

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17 May 2021 13:36 #360220 by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic Joseph Campbell is awful
Forgive me for saying this, especially with the timing, but I wouldn't be surprised if pandemics were some kind of way for nature to "fight back" and protect itself from its human population.
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17 May 2021 15:48 #360228 by Vincent Causse
Please dont get me started ! well too late. It is just what you said, in our immense instinct to survive, medicine managed to counter evolution, in the wild an animal that has a birth defect, or some kind of disease, genetic disorder will certainly die and not be able to procreate. But we manage to survive and by pass this, so we re transmitting disease to our children, we survive when we shouldnt and this way our specie has been weakened. Virus like the corona is just an other tool of mother nature to fight back, unconsciously. the huge numbers of humans alone is a weakness as we re more and more likely to meet, catch and transmit nasty disease again.
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