Once Again, Scientists Conclude That There's No Evidence That Homeopathy Works

More
02 Jul 2016 14:12 #247143 by Leah Starspectre

MadHatter wrote: OK I agree more or less having quality controls etc. However I still have two questions. One is about doctors prescribing such things with little to no medical value as a way to avoid giving patients that are begging for as I said antibiotics for a common cold something to make them go away because really the only remedy was cold and rest.

The second is about the advertisements. Ill give you an example studies show that a teaspoon or two of apple cider vinegar taken about a half an hour before a meal will help regulate against blood pressure spikes which is great for diabetics or prediabetic people why should they not be able to say that? Or do you think they should? Further as to the vitamin c law mentioned well thats odd because vitamin c may actually help reduce the duration of a common cold and would be better to tell people to take then antibiotics which people have been doing and thus creating super bugs. Do you think changing how it was worded would make it better. As instead of saying prevents colds, they say may reduce duration of cold?


Well, I'm no expert and can only give my own opinions, but here's what I think:

1. The pressure on doctors by patients is real. If there is no medical reason for then to prescribe anything and they're not willing to be firm about "time and rest", I think that doctors can certainly suggest natural care to help with minimizing symptoms. There are herbs/foods that can help relieve or minimize symptoms of a cold, even it can't cure it. That being said, homeopathy is basically water with no (or trace) other ingredient, and NOT a natural remedy. I think that holistic medicine should have a greater role in modern medicine, but side-to-side with modern modern medicine.

2. I think that if studies (including retrials) show a natural remedy to help a specific condition/symptom, they absolutely should be able to advertise it. The problem is that "Big Pharma" is real, and they are out for money, which affects studies and publications of natural remedies - why support free/cheap natural medicine when they can push antibiotics or other drugs they they can make millions on? And for the Vitamin C issues, yes, they're not allowed to advertize that they prevent or cure colds. Studies have shown that some people (mainly athletes) given high doses of Vitamin C after cold symptoms start can decrease the duration of the symptoms. Technically, they should be able to advertize that, but I'd argue that the amount of people who would actually get this benefit is too small to advertize.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
02 Jul 2016 14:21 #247144 by MadHatter

Miss_Leah wrote:

MadHatter wrote: OK I agree more or less having quality controls etc. However I still have two questions. One is about doctors prescribing such things with little to no medical value as a way to avoid giving patients that are begging for as I said antibiotics for a common cold something to make them go away because really the only remedy was cold and rest.

The second is about the advertisements. Ill give you an example studies show that a teaspoon or two of apple cider vinegar taken about a half an hour before a meal will help regulate against blood pressure spikes which is great for diabetics or prediabetic people why should they not be able to say that? Or do you think they should? Further as to the vitamin c law mentioned well thats odd because vitamin c may actually help reduce the duration of a common cold and would be better to tell people to take then antibiotics which people have been doing and thus creating super bugs. Do you think changing how it was worded would make it better. As instead of saying prevents colds, they say may reduce duration of cold?


Well, I'm no expert and can only give my own opinions, but here's what I think:

1. The pressure on doctors by patients is real. If there is no medical reason for then to prescribe anything and they're not willing to be firm about "time and rest", I think that doctors can certainly suggest natural care to help with minimizing symptoms. There are herbs/foods that can help relieve or minimize symptoms of a cold, even it can't cure it. That being said, homeopathy is basically water with no (or trace) other ingredient, and NOT a natural remedy. I think that holistic medicine should have a greater role in modern medicine, but side-to-side with modern modern medicine.

2. I think that if studies (including retrials) show a natural remedy to help a specific condition/symptom, they absolutely should be able to advertise it. The problem is that "Big Pharma" is real, and they are out for money, which affects studies and publications of natural remedies - why support free/cheap natural medicine when they can push antibiotics or other drugs they they can make millions on? And for the Vitamin C issues, yes, they're not allowed to advertize that they prevent or cure colds. Studies have shown that some people (mainly athletes) given high doses of Vitamin C after cold symptoms start can decrease the duration of the symptoms. Technically, they should be able to advertize that, but I'd argue that the amount of people who would actually get this benefit is too small to advertize.


Ok I guess we are more or less in agreement then. I mean I think if the remedy could help anyone then it should be able to be listed so long as the remedy causes no harm. Though I do admit the risk of people refusing to get true medical care is there. However I think at a particular point personal responsibility comes into play.

Knight of the Order
Training Master: Jestor
Apprentices: Lama Su, Leah
Just a pop culture Jedi doing what I can

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
02 Jul 2016 14:27 #247145 by Leah Starspectre

MadHatter wrote: Ok I guess we are more or less in agreement then. I mean I think if the remedy could help anyone then it should be able to be listed so long as the remedy causes no harm. Though I do admit the risk of people refusing to get true medical care is there. However I think at a particular point personal responsibility comes into play.


Yes absolutely. The problems comes when people start pushing remedies that aren't proven to help at all, like homeopathy. Especially if there's a risk that people claim they are more safe/effective than proven modern medicine (natural or synthetic)

It's easy to play on people's fear and gullibility, and so while personal responsibility comes into play, it's up to intelligent, knowledgeable and ethical people to keep others from being conned.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Rex

Please Log in to join the conversation.

  • simeon
  • simeon's Avatar
  • Guest
03 Jul 2016 03:06 - 03 Jul 2016 03:12 #247176 by simeon

MadHatter wrote:

Further as to the vitamin c law mentioned well thats odd because vitamin c may actually help reduce the duration of a common cold and would be better to tell people to take then antibiotics which people have been doing and thus creating super bugs. Do you think changing how it was worded would make it better. As instead of saying prevents colds, they say may reduce duration of cold?


Vitamin C is a vitamin. Symptoms of the common cold are the result of viral infection. The idea that vitamin C or megavitamin therapy has any more effect than a good diet and plenty of fluids when a person is sick or as a preventative, was suggested by Linas Pauling in the 1970's, and has not been confirmed categorically by independent and falsifiable studies.

Pauling's promotion of dietary supplements has also been heavily criticized. In a 2013 article in The Atlantic, pediatrician Paul Offit wrote that although Pauling was "so spectacularly right" that he won two Nobel Prizes, Pauling's late-career assertions about the benefits of dietary supplements were "so spectacularly wrong that he was arguably the world's greatest quack.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_Pauling#Medi...d_vitamin_C_advocacy


To compare the vitamin C fallacy to homeopathy isn't really going to advance the argument. And to claim that patients will harass their doctors until some pill or placebo is provided is a rather unkind thing to suggest. Your doctor didn't go through years of medical school to provide you with unhelpful advice.
Last edit: 03 Jul 2016 03:12 by simeon.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
03 Jul 2016 04:38 - 03 Jul 2016 05:16 #247177 by MadHatter

simeon wrote: To compare the vitamin C fallacy to homeopathy isn't really going to advance the argument. And to claim that patients will harass their doctors until some pill or placebo is provided is a rather unkind thing to suggest. Your doctor didn't go through years of medical school to provide you with unhelpful advice.

Im sorry but the US national library of medicine backs my statement that vitamin C may indeed reduce cold duration.
www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002145.htm

Further if doctors were not prescribing antibiotics needlessly news articles like these would not exist.

www.cbsnews.com/news/doctors-urged-to-st...s-for-colds-and-flu/

ideas.time.com/2012/04/16/why-doctors-us...s-for-a-common-cold/

Knight of the Order
Training Master: Jestor
Apprentices: Lama Su, Leah
Just a pop culture Jedi doing what I can
Last edit: 03 Jul 2016 05:16 by Adder.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

  • simeon
  • simeon's Avatar
  • Guest
03 Jul 2016 08:31 #247184 by simeon
Thank you for the links MadHatter.

As noted in the article( www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002145.htm ), the reason that vitamin C reduces cold duration seems to reflect a deficiency in the patient not the specific nature of vitamin C. This fact would be true if the deficiency was Iron or whatever vitamin or mineral is lacking. Lets not confuse correlation for causation.

I hope we do not disagree that a law preventing false claims on packaging (i.e. Canada, as mentioned by Miss_Leah) is a good thing?

And if the same holds true for Vitamin C, shouldn't something which is medically in doubt, such as homeopathy also be similarly treated? Perhaps patients wouldn't be charging in demanding drugs for all perceived problems if medical/scientific literacy was given higher priority. Citing individual responsibility is dishonest when patients do not have the education to discern which products do not provide actual treatment, and the regulation does not compel all producers to honestly market their products.

There was a recent report by ABC Four Corners ( www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2016/05/16/4460291.htm ) which went into the problems surrounding regulation of the pharmaceutical industry. Since the topic here is homeopathy, this comment from the article seems to sum it up rather well:

"You can sell something without any evidence that it's safe or effective." Dr Pieter Cohen, Harvard Medical School

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
03 Jul 2016 09:31 #247188 by Rex
Regardless of the case study of Vitamin C (I also think that nutrient deficiency has more to do with health than any one vitamin), most homeopathic remedies are simply sold by fallacies: appeal to nature, novelty or antiquity/tradition, and panacea attacks. Knowledge is power, or in this case, your health.
Anyone remember titanium bracelets or exercise in a bottle? Those are the more believable of the pantheon of dumb health fads.
Don't listen to tommy chong and expect a pharmacist's advice

Knights Secretary's Secretary
Apprentices: Vandrar
TM: Carlos Martinez
"A serious and good philosophical work could be written consisting entirely of jokes" - Wittgenstein

Please Log in to join the conversation.

  • Trisskar
  • Trisskar's Avatar
  • Guest
03 Jul 2016 14:04 #247193 by Trisskar
I feel like people are thinking very black and white in this thread and clinging onto the Extreeme circumstances as if they are the blinding highlight to how people normally behave. However I feel it is important to remind people of two things.

1. The average person isn't a mindless drone that doesn't do at least a little research into the things they are putting into their bodies. In fact...The conscious mind of teh average person is expanding and people are more and more becoming self conscious to the things happening around and within them

2. Shit happens. Idiots will be Idiots and there is nothing any of you can do about it. I was just as a Birthday party with a friend who works as a Nurse for a professional foot doctor and the stories she has to tell about the Idiocy of some people.....Tisk and plenty of face palms.

Homeopathy has had many successes and is growing in popularity because of those success's. These "Success's" are often linked with people who are doing a number of other practices in unison of the Homepathy application. Such as (but not limited to) Better diets, exercise, proper intake of vitamins and other important nutrients. What they don't realize is that - It is all the other stuff that is actually working, not the Homepathy products themselves. Placebo is actually a real and important part to health because it helps the patient adjust to the Idea of healing. Much like a Bandaide on a Kids scratch or cut. It may not be needed and it dosn't do anything but hide the scratch from the kids eyes.....but it helps to calm them and move on to more important things to focus on.

What I find amusing is. If Homepathy is "Just Water" as I have seen many people here claim. Then whats the big deal? If someone wants to use "Just Water" on themselves. All power to them. That is their right.

However, I do feel that Medical Doctors SHOULD NOT be handing prescriptions of Homepathy and herbal supplements to their patients. They are not trained in Herbal Knowledge and they have their own professions to stick to. That's like having Surgeons who's job is to cut open bodies and fix internal problems working in the Maternity ward helping mothers deliver babies LOL (....Oh....wait.... :whistle: They do....)

As for the false advertising and labeling of products. One should discuss that with the FDA and Pharmaceutical Companies, not the Doctors. And any self awakened individual should know by now that the FDA and Pharmaceutical Companies falsely label things purposefully. Soooo.....Good Luck there. ;)

Personally I do not use Homeopathy. I have not found it to work for me and prefer the products I make myself because I know exactly what it is I am putting into my products and thus, into my body. But I have known many friends who have claimed it's usefulness (Ignoring all their other practices) In favor of the "Just Water" product that is easier to focus their minds on.

Just my 2 cents.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
03 Jul 2016 17:33 #247202 by Cyan Sarden

Trisskar wrote: If Homepathy is "Just Water" as I have seen many people here claim. Then whats the big deal? If someone wants to use "Just Water" on themselves. All power to them. That is their right.


I agree with pretty much everything you've said. I'd just like to pick this one out: the big deal here isn't that people use Homeopathy, but that they don't pay for it themselves. In Switzerland, homeopathic "remedies" are covered by mandatory health insurance - and that's where the fun ends for me. I'm simply not willing to pay higher premiums for things that are proven to have no efficacy whatsoever. At the same time, some highly effective treatments aren't covered because only a handful of people require them and because they are very expensive. So some people are left to die or suffer although there is a treatment for what they're suffering from, while other people get water (or alcohol) at 100 bucks for 2 deciliters paid by the health insurance.

Cyan

ps: it's very important to differentiate between herbal remedies and homeopathy. Many herbal remedies are proven to work extremely well (St. John's Wort, valerian root etc. spring to mind). Homeopathy contains no active ingredient whatsoever.

Do not look for happiness outside yourself. The awakened seek happiness inside.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

  • Trisskar
  • Trisskar's Avatar
  • Guest
03 Jul 2016 17:42 #247204 by Trisskar

Cyan Sarden wrote: ps: it's very important to differentiate between herbal remedies and homeopathy. Many herbal remedies are proven to work extremely well (St. John's Wort, valerian root etc. spring to mind). Homeopathy contains no active ingredient whatsoever.


Truth. I notice the two keep getting mixed up here ;) Vit C for example isn't a Homeopathy substance. :)

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Moderators: RexZeroDiana W