Sith

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11 Apr 2017 17:28 #280495 by Arisaig
Replied by Arisaig on topic Sith

ZealotX wrote: Imagine driving a car and ONLY thinking about yourself. How long would it take before you crashed into someone? Imagine you're driving and you want to make a turn. There's a stop sign. Do you make the turn without consideration of traffic? No. It would threaten your own life to do so. It is a THREAT to your own life not to consider others. That's normal. It's not Sith philosophy to act normal. Sith philosophy would be to buy a semi truck so that if they want to turn everyone else will be forced to stop or crash into them. They seek power so that they don't have to stop. Stopping is playing by the rules. That's what normal people do. The rules are made to protect everyone. The sith is only looking out for himself so he doesn't care about someone else's rules. Those rules are chains and he wants the power so he can have the freedom to ignore them.


But that is the mentality of the cinematic Sith again. They can do things consequence free because, well, its a movie. In real life, if a person was to play against the rules without heeding the wellbeing of others, they are sociopaths or even straight deranged and will end up safely locked away in a padded room.

Sith, and even Satanism, is about personal power. Be that through working out, political influence, or even good old fashion knowledge, these paths both go after becoming the best version of themselves they can be, not just going after what you want all willy nilly worry free of consequences.

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11 Apr 2017 17:34 #280500 by MadHatter
Replied by MadHatter on topic Sith
ZealotX I failed to type the world likely before the never be ok with. So I misspoke but in that rare cause you mentioned then yes.

However, everything you said shows that A) Sith and Satanists are not de facto evil. B.) we need an agreed upon definition of evil. C) that anything taken to extremes can be bad but its not guaranteed.

Because as Arisaig said no one can get away with ignoring the rules or abusing people forever. In the case of your driver with a semi truck, either the police or a mob would come looking for justice eventually. So no Satanist or Sith in their right mind would take such foolish actions. Its not rational.

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11 Apr 2017 17:38 - 11 Apr 2017 17:39 #280502 by OB1Shinobi
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic Sith
you know i like this one:

e·vil
adjective
1. profoundly immoral and malevolent.

maybe it could be improved but i think that covers it fairly well

People are complicated.
Last edit: 11 Apr 2017 17:39 by OB1Shinobi.
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11 Apr 2017 18:17 - 11 Apr 2017 18:18 #280511 by Luthien
Replied by Luthien on topic Sith

ZealotX wrote: I say satanism IS evil. ... Evil is often shown in monstrous forms because it is an "exaggeration" of the inner desires or darkness of humanity. It is extreme by nature.

The Satanic Bible wrote: People often mistake compulsion for indulgence, but there is a world of difference between the two. A compulsion is never created by indulging, but by not being able to indulge. By making something taboo, it only serves to intensify the desire. Everyone likes to do the things they have been told not to. "Forbidden fruits are sweetest."


Satanism is against compulsion, which is brought upon by too much restraint. There's nothing extreme about Satanism. What I quoted above exemplifies this point; that restraining brings intense desire upon the individual, thereby making them more likely to be compulsive, or to over-indulge. Satanism is a self-centered approach, but is not evil in the way that you described it. The reason it is seen as evil from an Abrahamic traditionalist's perspective is that the Abrahamic traditionalist goes through life abstaining from very much, while Satanists believe in indulgence over abstinence.
Last edit: 11 Apr 2017 18:18 by Luthien.

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11 Apr 2017 18:18 #280514 by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic Sith

Arisaig wrote: The Force is much like a coin. It has two sides, which we can define as "Light" and "Dark". You cannot spend just one side of a coin, so you must embrace both to be effective.

Real life Sith, I find, are just more ambitious. Take a look at their code (below). This is one translation of their code.

Sith Code [ Click to expand ]


Notice, there is nothing evil about it. It thrives off amibition and personal betterment, and doing all this through the Force. The Jedi code is the same, if not more restricitive. We cannot write off the merits of the Sith code, but we can choose not to follow it. This is a choice given to the individual.

ZealotX wrote: What is Evil? I say Satanism IS evil.


There is ignorance, yet there is Knowledge. Perhaps do more research into this before making such a statement. (Only a Sith deals in absolutes, if we wish to continue down the cinematic narrative)


The irony is that you are quoting the mythos (Darth Bane) and saying that my perspective is stuck in the SW mythos. Embracing "what is" is different from the two philosophies of Jedi and Sith. The Sith do not embrace "what is". They seek to control. Let me give you a real world example of a true Sith.

Something unfortunate that happens to many people who are sexually abused is that they sometimes turn into abusers. Why does this happen? This happens because, during the abuse, the victim faces a lack of power. They were victimized and had their sense of power and control taken away. They want to get their sense of power back so they victimize someone else. This is cancerous behavior. You can demonize the actions of the person but to understand why they did it... they themselves aren't evil. They are reacting to evil that was done to them. But they're getting their own power back at the expense of someone else. That's not so different from the same actions of their abuser.

The Jedi code: Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony.

accepts emotion. The Sith code saying peace is a lie "I, I, I, I". It's saying there is imbalance and I'm going to be an agent of imbalance to imbalance things in my own favor. The "power" one needs to do this doesn't come from out of nothing. It comes from others. If it were not so Sith would be like monks on some mountain somewhere, content in their own abilities. But they never are. They're not interested in breaking your chains. They're only interested in breaking their own so that they have victory and they have power. This mindset is so unsustainable by a group that Sith cannot even exist as a large group without destroying themselves. So while I understand the Sith code I do not see it as meritorious. It is destructive. And I'm not talking about in SW mythos. I'm talking about in real life which the mythos is an expression of. If you haven't read Darth Bane, you really should. Because the series actually delves into and deals with the principles of the Sith code and although it does "sound good" to an individual, like Bane, who felt powerless or had their power taken away, it creates all the personalities that we see in the SW universe known as Sith. None them "do evil" purely for the sake of evil. All of them are living the principles of the Sith code because of their own self interest. And while you can say there are ranking members of the Sith here, the Sith NEVER seem to understand the result of their philosophy on themselves and the universe. In the mythology their eyes don't change color for no reason. That doesn't mean that they don't think their reasons are good. Of course they do. They wouldn't be Sith if they didn't. Calling them Sith, for me, is not a recognition of what they intend to be, but rather a recognition of the ideology that produces the same results we see in the mythos. Those who aren't producing those results is only because they lack the POWER needed to do so.

What do you see yourself as?

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11 Apr 2017 18:26 #280517 by Arisaig
Replied by Arisaig on topic Sith

ZealotX wrote:

Arisaig wrote: The Force is much like a coin. It has two sides, which we can define as "Light" and "Dark". You cannot spend just one side of a coin, so you must embrace both to be effective.

Real life Sith, I find, are just more ambitious. Take a look at their code (below). This is one translation of their code.

Sith Code [ Click to expand ]


Notice, there is nothing evil about it. It thrives off amibition and personal betterment, and doing all this through the Force. The Jedi code is the same, if not more restricitive. We cannot write off the merits of the Sith code, but we can choose not to follow it. This is a choice given to the individual.

ZealotX wrote: What is Evil? I say Satanism IS evil.


There is ignorance, yet there is Knowledge. Perhaps do more research into this before making such a statement. (Only a Sith deals in absolutes, if we wish to continue down the cinematic narrative)


The irony is that you are quoting the mythos (Darth Bane) and saying that my perspective is stuck in the SW mythos.


Yes, I quote mythos. Lots of our saying are stuck in mythos, but this is also the Code of the real life Jedi.

Other mythos we rely upon is statements such as "May the Force be with you" or even the term Jedi. The difference between the SW mythos and our mythos is we are part of the real world, not the fiction.

Yellow eyes, acting without heed of others, and world domination are the stuff of the SW mythos.The real Sith are just like us, albeit with perhaps a different viewpoint.

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11 Apr 2017 18:48 #280521 by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic Sith

MadHatter wrote: ZealotX I failed to type the world likely before the never be ok with. So I misspoke but in that rare cause you mentioned then yes.

However, everything you said shows that A) Sith and Satanists are not de facto evil. B.) we need an agreed upon definition of evil. C) that anything taken to extremes can be bad but its not guaranteed.

Because as Arisaig said no one can get away with ignoring the rules or abusing people forever. In the case of your driver with a semi truck, either the police or a mob would come looking for justice eventually. So no Satanist or Sith in their right mind would take such foolish actions. Its not rational.


I like your thinking.

A) - is the reason why I tried to (somewhere in what I wrote) differentiate between the PERSON and the ideology.
B) There is also a distinction between the INTENT of one's actions and the RESULT of one's actions.
C) If you do not have a regard for others in your actions your results will likely be more beneficial to yourself and much more potentially bad for someone else.

Do you agree that every action has an equal and opposite reaction? (or something to similar effect)

The police/mob response would be about as strong/powerful as the strength/power of the attack. If terrorists were running over people in cars it wouldn't have the power or response as running over people in a truck, no?

What I'm saying is someone with a true Sith mentality would be like a terrorist leader. They may want others to get hurt because it furthers their own agenda. Terrorists do not mind having the world's most powerful military after them. Are they in their right minds? They are. But they believe (feel) their power is greater than all the allied forces against them. Because they "feel" like they are in chains they seek the power to free themselves by any means necessary. True Sith will always do this because they don't care what the results are because if they gain enough power they will be insulated from the effects. Terrorists are seen as the ones on the front lines committing acts of terror, but these are zealots willing to die for their beliefs. Their beliefs are manipulated by people who want to be a part of a new world in which their beliefs/they/their people rule. They don't want to die. They want to be the ones to survive. They don't have to be afraid of the mob because they are insulated by the cannon fodder; by the pawns. A Sith fights through such people. They amass power to massive effect. If there are many they'll act like an army and conform to a hierarchy. When there is only one or two they'll hide their true intention and use whatever you think or believe in order to reach their own objectives. Being cautious of retribution and justice is fear. A true Sith obtains power so that they don't have to be afraid. Darth Sidious was probably the best example of this but don't underestimate the ability of humans to do the same exact thing in real life. It is indeed possible to hide one's intention, seek money, use money to buy power, use power to get more money, lie to people with a populist message and become president of the United States and have all the "good guys" working for you.

Other people cheat so many people and make so many millions of dollars in the process that, to them, it is worth the risk and they simply buy the best defense. Bernie Madoff wasn't in his right mind? Of course he was. His scam raked in around $65 BILLION dollars. THAT... to me... is a Sith (in practice). Was the risk not worth the reward?

If people want to play "Sith" then whatever. But if we're intellectually discussing what it means to be Sith, I'm free to have the perspective that makes the most sense to me, not whatever watered down ideology that lets people identify with something "cool". If they want to flex online but not really become senators and lobbyists, great! But to me, the tree is known by its fruit.

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11 Apr 2017 19:04 - 11 Apr 2017 19:07 #280525 by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic Sith

Arisaig wrote:
Yellow eyes, acting without heed of others, and world domination are the stuff of the SW mythos.The real Sith are just like us, albeit with perhaps a different viewpoint.


Awww come on...

You know these cosmetic changes are symbolic of internal character changes.

If you follow a Sith teaching that regards others, then you are simply modifying (or attempting to) Sith philosophy. I cannot agree with that any more than I could saying Darth Maul was a Jedi. It's like a man wanting to be a woman and so he puts on women's clothes. In reality he's still a man, but a man trying to change the definition of a woman in order to accommodate what he believes he is or wants to be.

Changing the definition of Sith, IMO, is like changing the definition of 'hot' so that its more lukewarm. Why? If that is the case what's hot? By taking the word Sith and stripping out whatever you don't like or want to be true about the Sith Code and what its results are, you're basically turning the Sith into Dark or Gray Jedi. It doesn't really change what Sith means. It only changes how YOU see the Sith. As an African American I know all about manipulating the English language. We do it on the level of an artform. But having a new definition of "hot" or "bad" doesn't change what's in the dictionary. And in some cases (like "do you overstand what I'm telling you?") its cute but it loses the value of the original definition. And that's my main issue with changing definition of the Sith and why I personally will not do it. The real Sith are NOT just like us. You just want them to be and thus agreeing to go along with a change in definition. And I'm not knocking you. I cannot impose my definition upon you. I'm simply stating my definition and responding to posts aimed at "correcting me". Everyone is free to have their own opinion. We don't have to agree. And let's be real... sometimes it's fun not to.

ps.

and as far as world domination... not all sith in SW mythology ever had the same ambitions. And there was a time when they were an army. Same philosophy. Different execution. Just because every sith isn't going to seek world domination doesn't make them as harmless as bunny rabbits. They don't train to fight just to defend themselves.
Last edit: 11 Apr 2017 19:07 by ZealotX.

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11 Apr 2017 19:05 #280526 by MadHatter
Replied by MadHatter on topic Sith
ZealotX your line of thinking is one that is dangerous. I ought to know as its one of my greatest weaknesses as a Jedi. You see your line of thinking draws hard lines in the sand and says my side good, their side bad. It then sets up a moral line that allows you to not only think higher of yourself than you should but to dismiss other thought processes as evil and those that follow them as such as well. Its risky and can lead to monstrous actions as bad or worse than the ones you set out to combat. Look at the crusades. Those that got involved did horrid things in the name of good. Look at Darth Tyrannus. AKA Count Dooku. He wanted to order the world and help those around him. Yet in the end, he became evil due to it. Neither side wanted to be selfish. But some of the worst acts of human history are committed for the good of the many.

You cannot no true Scotsman those that are Sith if they do not fit what you think a Sith ought to be. The fact is there are Sith groups out there and they do not fit what you claim a "true sith" to be and they still are Sith no matter how much you might try to disagree.

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Apprentices: Lama Su, Leah
Just a pop culture Jedi doing what I can
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11 Apr 2017 19:09 - 11 Apr 2017 19:11 #280527 by Arisaig
Replied by Arisaig on topic Sith

You know these cosmetic changes are symbolic of internal character changes.


I am aware of that. But my quoting of the Sith Code is not stating SW mythos as you said in a previous post.

I cannot agree with that any more than I could saying Darth Maul was a Jedi. It's like a man wanting to be a woman and so he puts on women's clothes. In reality he's still a man, but a man trying to change the definition of a woman in order to accommodate what he believes he is or wants to be.


A slippery slope, that is. We have many Jedi (and Sith) whom identify on different levels of the LGBTQ+ community and the gender spectrum.

Changing the definition of Sith, IMO, is like changing the definition of 'hot' so that its more lukewarm.


Yes, sometimes words have to be changed to fit the meaning of the day. The Sith of the movies are an extreme that can not and would not be tolerated in today's world. That's the long and the short of it. I am a Jedi of this world, but in the SW world, I'd be a nobody, because I cannot "use" the Force. So the definition changes to fit.
Last edit: 11 Apr 2017 19:11 by Arisaig.

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