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12 Apr 2017 10:25 #280615 by Xiam
Replied by Xiam on topic Sith

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: @xiam
Same concept follows... why call yourself a "Christian"? Your really just a roleplayer of the character of christ.

I don't know if I follow. Do they do that? All the Christians I've met seem to be more of the mindset that Jesus is their invisible boyfriend.

(I should really stop saying things that might anger people.)

Yoda: "Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."

Mr. Miyagi: "Walk on road, hm? Walk left side, safe. Walk right side, safe. Walk middle, sooner or later, [makes squish gesture] get squish just like grape."

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12 Apr 2017 10:45 - 12 Apr 2017 10:46 #280616 by Gwinn
Replied by Gwinn on topic Sith

ZealotX wrote: @Luthien

What claims are you referring to? And what exactly do you think I should have read beyond the Darth Bane series and the other SW books in my collection? Not even worth mentioning are the games I've played that used the SW license with a sanctioned understanding of Sith.

What I'm saying is based on SW canon. People reject it because it is true to SW but not to them. I can't research a group of pelicans to learn about bears. I can't spend time interacting with mice to learn about snakes.

I mean no offense, but how do I know the subjects of study actually are the thing I want to know about? Because they say they are? The bible says there are those who "say they are Jews and are not" and calls them the synagogue of Satan. What people claim, even if they agree together about their claims, doesn't equate to an objective fact.

And no one has yet to explain what makes them a Sith rather than a Gray or Dark Jedi... or even just a normal person looking out for themselves. Because what would makes me a Jedi is not simply calling myself a Jedi.


You seem to be under the assumption that what is expected around here is for people to perfectly emulate what is seen in the movies. Right on the home page, TOTJO states:

Jediism does not base its focus on myth and fiction but on the real life issues and philosophies that are at the source of myth.

From this, it's reasonable to assume those that hang out around here that claim to be Sith do the same thing.

One suggestion I could make is to delve deeper into IP lesson one. I would suggest you make another attempt on Part 1 of this lesson, since your current post doesn't once reference the assigned material, and it's unclear whether you studied it at all. It is a fundamental part of understanding what this place actually is.
Last edit: 12 Apr 2017 10:46 by Gwinn.

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12 Apr 2017 12:34 #280628 by Luthien
Replied by Luthien on topic Sith

ZealotX wrote: @Luthien

What claims are you referring to? And what exactly do you think I should have read beyond the Darth Bane series and the other SW books in my collection? Not even worth mentioning are the games I've played that used the SW license with a sanctioned understanding of Sith.

What I'm saying is based on SW canon. People reject it because it is true to SW but not to them. I can't research a group of pelicans to learn about bears. I can't spend time interacting with mice to learn about snakes.

I mean no offense, but how do I know the subjects of study actually are the thing I want to know about? Because they say they are? The bible says there are those who "say they are Jews and are not" and calls them the synagogue of Satan. What people claim, even if they agree together about their claims, doesn't equate to an objective fact.

And no one has yet to explain what makes them a Sith rather than a Gray or Dark Jedi... or even just a normal person looking out for themselves. Because what would makes me a Jedi is not simply calling myself a Jedi.


By that same logic, how do you know that this is a forum of "actual" Jedi? You can read all you like, but that doesn't make you a Jedi or a Sith. What I meant was exploration into more than this community. Find what you're looking for, instead of posting conjecture.

I'll go ahead and put all the claims you made that I cared to extract, below:


“… Sith are often confused …”

“The older we grow, the more our cells divide and multiply and that creates friends and families, tribes and nations…”
You don't understand basic microbiology, if you're going to be making that claim.

“Jedi and Sith ARE opposing extremes.”
Are they now? Source? Is it the SW movies and EU books?

You likened Sith to cancer in most of that post…

You even said that you don’t understand it:

“I would say whoever first sparked the idea that the Sith here just have a different philosophy (and no I don't know what that is except what I responded to) is like Qui Gon Jinn.”

“What is Evil? I say satanism IS evil.” I've already responded to this, but I felt that it should be included.

“Adversaries are, by definition, detrimental.” No. Not necessarily. You can have a dispute that isn’t harmful.

“Firstly, the mythology of the Star Wars movie plots are based on real life…” Citation needed.

“A Sith might want to rule the world because they BELIEVE/FEEL that by doing so it would bring peace and therefore be ultimately beneficial to the greatest number of people.” Nope. Sith code, line one: Peace is a lie; there is only Passion.

“Sith teaching ALWAYS sounds good (to someone).” Apparently not, or else there would be more Sith.

“The COS is a cult that worships freedom.” Nope again.

“Adam and Eve were "free" to eat from all the other trees. But they were not "free" to eat from this certain "set apart" one.”
I don’t have a problem with these statements, per se, but I do have thoughts about this that I’ll save for another conversation.

“The sith is only looking out for himself so he doesn't care about someone else's rules.” We live in a society that has laws (rules) and I would not say that Sith are criminals. Could they be? Well, anybody has the capacity to be a criminal, if so inclined.

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12 Apr 2017 14:26 #280632 by Avalon
Replied by Avalon on topic Sith

And since the Jedi story is also one of redemption I wouldn't be much of a Jedi if I didn't instinctively try to bring "Sith" back to the light or prevent any threat they pose to the Jedi and the universe.


Just a couple of things: First, the Jedi story is not a story of redemption. The two Star Wars trilogies are a story of redemption, which focuses around one individual: Anakin. But the Jedi are not a story of redemption. In fact, if you'll recall, throughout the entire six movies, the Jedi are heavily of the belief that the Sith cannot be redeemed; once fallen to the dark side, they're lost forever. Only Luke, who has never had the life long conditioning of the Old Jedi Order, believes that Anakin is capable of being saved. That was the result of his belief not in the Jedi or the Force, but in his father as an individual.You can take away the Jedi, the Sith, and the Force, and make it about an average Joe helping bring his dictatorial father away from his ways, and while it would be probably be bland and boring, the story would still exist the same way it does with those three things.

Secondly, I know it's been said before, but I'll go ahead and repeat: the Jedi and Sith of real life are not, and will not, be like the Jedi and Sith of Star Wars. I'll allow that what I'm about to say is probably not fully accurate (and anyone with better in the know than I, feel free to correct), but the only difference between Jedi and Sith of real life is really how we approach emotions in our lives and self improvement. The Jedi being the sort that try to not allow their emotions to affect our actions, and the Sith being the sort who are willing to use those emotions more fully in their actions. And frankly, there's nothing right or wrong about either of those methods. In the end, both are focused in improvement of Self, and that's all that really matters.

I would say that the Sith of real life are no more in need of redemption than we as Jedi are appropriate to attempt to provide it. I'm certainly not going to go up to the Sith on site and say "I'm a Jedi, so I'm going to try and redeem you to the light!!" I would highly recommend you not try to do so yourself ;) At best, you'll be laughed at, and at worse you might have your ass temporarily handed to you, but in the end, they simply won't give a d**n.

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12 Apr 2017 15:15 #280635 by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic Sith

Find what you're looking for, instead of posting conjecture.

Now you're telling me what to do? Telling me to "be quiet" and not post my own opinions?? On a forum??? LOL nice!
(This is www.templeofthejediorder.org right? not www.templeofthesithorder.org . All opinions are welcome because this site accepts individual paths)

“… Sith are often confused …”

You're saying they're not? How could you possibly know that? If you were confused yourself, would you know? If you knew you were confused you wouldn't be confused.

You don't understand basic microbiology, if you're going to be making that claim.

Okay, I'm waiting for the actual correction of how this is wrong. Are you saying that after generations of mitosis the organism doesn't reproduce, doesn't create children, who then have friends and family because of other people who had children due to the same process of mitosis, and that people spread out and eventually become villages, tribes, and nations? Please correct me.

“Jedi and Sith ARE opposing extremes.”
Are they now? Source? Is it the SW movies and EU books?{/quote]
That's where both terms come from, is it not?

You likened Sith to cancer in most of that post…

How is it not?

You even said that you don’t understand it:

error: I said I don't know what NEW philosophy it is outside the content in this thread that I'm responding to. I understand the Sith code and Philosophy, especially from reading Darth Bane. I do not recognize people using the name from SW mythos and not the philosophy. For me, the 2 are inseparable. You can't take the term sith from the SW franchise, give it a new philosophy, water down all the negative side-effects of seeking power without discipline, and then claim to be that and expect every Jedi to nod in agreement.

“What is Evil? I say satanism IS evil.” I've already responded to this, but I felt that it should be included.

In the Garden of Eden story, Adam and Eve are punished for eating from the "tree of knowledge of good and evil." In other words, blind obedience to the Biblical "God" is considered "good," whereas independent moral judgment, based on one's own knowledge, is considered "evil." But, like many other educated people in the West today, we Satanists do not agree with this idea at all. - theisticsatanism.com/bgoat/essays/What-Is-S.html

According to their (not mine) understanding of satanism, it IS evil from a certain perspective. I will say again... Hitler wasn't evil in his own eyes. In his own eyes what he was doing was "good". This confusion between good and evil is what creates evil (actions). How much of the world's evil has been done by someone thinking they're the good guy? So if I say Sith are confused (speaking of real sith) that is again a reference to the idea that the bad guy doesn't actually know he's the bad guy. Who is good and who is bad is relative to the 3rd person STORYTELLER. So, again... imho... Sith are confused.

“Adversaries are, by definition, detrimental.” No. Not necessarily. You can have a dispute that isn’t harmful.

Name an adversary, not an obstacle, that wasn't trying to do you any type of harm. An adversary doesn't have to be successful in order to be harmful.

“Firstly, the mythology of the Star Wars movie plots are based on real life…” Citation needed.

www.history.com/news/the-real-history-that-inspired-star-wars
“I love history, so while the psychological basis of ‘Star Wars’ is mythological, the political and social bases are historical,” Lucas told the Boston Globe in a 2005 interview. In fact, the filmmaker is such a history buff that he collaborated in the publication of the 2013 book “Star Wars and History,” which was edited by history professors Nancy R. Reagin and Janice Liedl. Written by a dozen leading historians and reviewed and confirmed by Lucas, “Star Wars and History” identifies the numerous real-life figures and events that inspired the science-fiction franchise, including the following: Nazi Germany, Richard Nixon, Vietnam War, Ancient Rome, Knights Templar, Cold War

“A Sith might want to rule the world because they BELIEVE/FEEL that by doing so it would bring peace and therefore be ultimately beneficial to the greatest number of people.” Nope. Sith code, line one: Peace is a lie; there is only Passion.

Anakin Skywalker: [Through a hologram projector] The Separatists have been taken care of, my master.
The Emperor: It is finished then. You have restored peace and justice to the galaxy.

Obi-Wan Kenobi: You have allowed this dark lord to twist your mind, until now, until now you've become the very thing you swore to destroy.
Anakin Skywalker: Don't lecture me, Obi-Wan! I see through the lies of the Jedi. I do not fear the dark side as you do. I have brought peace, freedom, justice, and security to my new Empire.
Obi-Wan Kenobi: Your new Empire?
Anakin Skywalker: Don't make me kill you.
Obi-Wan Kenobi: Anakin, my allegiance is to the Republic, to democracy.
Anakin Skywalker: If you're not with me, then you're my enemy.

Anakin Skywalker: The traitors have been taken care of, Lord Sidious.
Darth Sidious: Good... Good... you have done well, my apprentice. Now Lord Vader, go and bring peace to the Empire.

The reason why it sounds so conflicting is because it is. Anakin wanted power to save Padme but also he had very authoritarian ideas about government. He backed Palpatine also because we wanted to end the conflicts. Would it end all conflicts everywhere? NO. But the goal of creating an empire was not to fight wars on every planet and play universal cop the way America does. A Sith empire is concerned with its own supremacy and power. The line that peace is a lie doesn't negate their desire to fight for their own political power to create peace for the territory they rule. It just means that peace is, to them in the grand scheme, a temporary illusion. They have to always therefore be ready for the next war.

“Sith teaching ALWAYS sounds good (to someone).” Apparently not, or else there would be more Sith.[/qoute]
I qualified the statement with the word "someone". "someone" is different from "everyone" or "most people".

“The COS is a cult that worships freedom.” Nope again.

"The Satanic principle is that man willfully controls his destiny; if he doesn’t, some other man—a lot smarter than he is—will." - Anton Szandor LaVey

“The sith is only looking out for himself so he doesn't care about someone else's rules.”

We live in a society that has laws (rules) and I would not say that Sith are criminals. Could they be? Well, anybody has the capacity to be a criminal, if so inclined.

Again, this is why I don't recognize these people as real Sith. A real Sith would be someone like Donald Trump. Trump is worth 1000 so-called "real life" Sith. No offense, but this guy defrauded a bunch of people who sought the same power (wealth) he had and they went to his school thinking he was going to teach them how to get rich. He even named it Trump University when it isn't a university. That's GANGSTA! He was already rich when he did this. Did it anyway. Why? Cuz screw people. Screw the rules. I can afford lawyers. I can afford to pay the fines. And now he's the *#&$%)@! president. You think Trump actually cares about people? The true Sith principle would be to get whatever power you can get so that you can then use that power to gain more power. The Sith doesn't have the moral restrictions of the Jedi. Legal systems? That's what lawyers are for. A lot of people in up in jail because they think like Sith do. Restrictions are what the Jedi use. Do you think Darth Plagueis considered the laws before experimenting on people? Do you think Palpatine secretly creating war in order to gain control of the Senate was legal? No! The whole point is to use whatever power you have to get around all that stuff. How good you are at doing so is what separates a "good" Sith from a bad one.

By that same logic, how do you know that this is a forum of "actual" Jedi? You can read all you like, but that doesn't make you a Jedi or a Sith.

Even a Jedi brought up this question. The answer is simple. Jediism is a philosophy following the moral and spiritual codes demonstrated by the fictional Jedi. In other words, Jedi are people who identify with the fictional Jedi and be more like them on a moral/spiritual level. It's not about props, but rather the internal journey. What people are saying here is that the Sith and the Jedi are similar and that "real life sith" are NOT following the same immoral and carnal lusts for power demonstrated by the fictional Sith. Instead, they use the same name and the same code but claim to have a different philosophy. I'm saying that code is connected with the behavior in the moves and EU because that is the correct interpretation.

Supreme Chancellor: Good is a point of view, Anakin. The Sith and the Jedi are similar in almost every way, including their quest for greater power.
Anakin Skywalker: The Sith rely on their passion for their strength. They think inward, only about themselves.
Supreme Chancellor: And the Jedi don't?
Anakin Skywalker: The Jedi are selfless... they only care about others.

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12 Apr 2017 15:24 - 12 Apr 2017 15:25 #280638 by Manu
Replied by Manu on topic Sith
The beautiful thing about those who claim the title of "Sith" is that they make their own paths, and keep busy getting things done, instead of wasting time and going on 12 pages about fictional characters and dead rhethoric.

Maybe we should take a hint.

Problems that remain persistently insoluble should always be suspected as questions asked in the wrong way - Alan Watts
Last edit: 12 Apr 2017 15:25 by Manu.
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12 Apr 2017 15:34 #280639 by Kyber
Replied by Kyber on topic Sith
I do not know what's going on here, but everyone is welcome to give their opinion as long as it does not lose decorum, be polite and such things.
Really I will not read all the topics, I will post only my opinion because these themes like Sith or gray jedis simply appear here and there again and again and it seems that people do not understand.

1st. We are all made of light and darkness, so there is not a 100% path of one or the other. So Jedi and Sith in our reality are just different perspectives, as in Buddhism, for example, there are several lineages sometimes with opposite teachings. Because each one has a different reality, so the real being mutable for each person, which is to be sith for one, can be jedi for another.

2nd. If this is true, siths and jedi tend towards the middle path, each in their perspective. That is, we are all in the middle, gray jedis DO NOT EXIST, this is already the means. Why invent more and more things when we know that everyone has good and evil within them?

3th. Discussing these matters is talking about points of view. They are all painting the same mountain with different angles. Do not you see? We have other more important topics than discuss methodology. Machismo, hunger, depression, suicide, etc. Of course that's my opinion, but those themes are more important to me.

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12 Apr 2017 15:36 #280640 by Kyrin Wyldstar
Replied by Kyrin Wyldstar on topic Sith

Xiam wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: @xiam
Same concept follows... why call yourself a "Christian"? Your really just a roleplayer of the character of christ.

I don't know if I follow. Do they do that? All the Christians I've met seem to be more of the mindset that Jesus is their invisible boyfriend.

(I should really stop saying things that might anger people.)


What I mean is that Christians try to emulate the character of Christ, try to be like him and live their lives as he would have lived his life according to bible lore. But Christs exploits were as unnatural as the movie Jedis. Under the idea that Christ and his exploits were just as made up as the movie Star Wars, they become role players in that sense, even to the point of trying to heal the sick supernaturally. Just like the claims that Jedi/Sith are role playing or vampires are role playing something that is otherwise imaginary. Trying to live your life according to a "made up" thing is senseless and this includes drawing life lessons from the mythology (lore/cannon) itself as well. Quoting a character or describing his actions as something we could equate to real life is just as senseless. Instead what we need to do is look behind the myth to the source and in that we find real life. Hence these generalizations that those that practice jediism of sithism in real life are just like their movie equivalents is nonsensical.

On another note, yes I agree that fittest does not mean strongest but when those that are fit are selected they become the strongest, have the strongest chance, stronger in their attempts to persevere and survive. Just becasue one is small and furry does not mean they are meek. I have seen some pretty fierce squirrels LOL :P

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12 Apr 2017 15:52 #280642 by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic Sith
@avalonslight

First, the Jedi story is not a story of redemption.


Luke: No. You're coming with me. I'll not leave you here, I've got to save you.
Anakin: You already... have, Luke. You were right. You were right about me. Tell your sister... you were right.

Do I think the Jedi wanted to save every Sith? No. You are correct about their beliefs. But what I'm saying is that their beliefs were part of the redemption story of Anakin. Salvation is a big part of the Christian religion. The bible recalls a "fall" of man and many believe satan "fell" in a similar way. So maybe I should have said the "Star Wars story" instead of the Jedi but lol, for me Star Wars is a Jedi story. The "chosen one" is a Jedi that goes into hell and is reborn. The Jedi Revan is also after a similitude of Anakin. He falls to the darkside and in that story (Knights of the Old Republic) he is redeemed (canon ending of the game). So you can see how I might connect Jedi with redemption. After all, the Sith were basically created by fallen Jedi so the cure to the problem was not eradication, imho, but rather salvation.

Secondly, I don't think that the fall to the darkside is accomplished overnight. It is by going down the dark path and basically normalizing that kind of behavior that allows you to do anything, regardless of the morality of it, in order to achieve your goals. Even more recently with Kylo Ren. He had to murder his father in order to move forward as a Sith. It wasn't simply the attachment. It was the fact that if he could murder his own father (maybe his last bit of humanity) then he would be able to give himself over completely to the Dark Side which is where a Sith derives his power. It is because he only thinks about himself that he can do such immoral things because self relative to the needs of others is what morality is based on. The dark side is a faster more seductive way to power. It's like working your whole life to retire vs spending your whole life trying to scam people to get to a higher level of financial security. But in the end the scammer often ends up with less than the person who did it the right way.

I would say the Sith way doesn't really work. It is seductive like a pyramid scheme. A lot of people, at some point, fall for some kind of get rich quick scheme or just an easy money scheme. It sounds good. They sign up. And in the end they help the person who started the pyramid to get rich. So it DOES work... just not for most people. But the appeal... is real. The idea that if you do A, B, and C... is real. But the ability for the person to use one of these programs the way they imagine?... Most people have to be cutthroat in order to do it. Pyramid schemes naturally utilize the people you know. So if you're not sure about this whole thing and you don't want to get everyone you know to put in money on your suggestion without knowing it will work for them, or understanding that it probably wont work for them unless they are willing to seduce their people.... if you aren't completely sold you will not completely sell and you will not make that money. That's why the real Sith teachings told acolytes to fully commit to the dark side. You have to fully commit in order to get results. This is taught in the SW mythos, but just like in my pyramid scheme example it is true to life. And if someone understands that even a little more because we discussed it and they could see it from different angles then I don't care if they laugh.

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12 Apr 2017 16:07 #280645 by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic Sith

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: What I mean is that Christians try to emulate the character of Christ, try to be like him and live their lives as he would have lived his life according to bible lore. But Christs exploits were as unnatural as the movie Jedis. Under the idea that Christ and his exploits were just as made up as the movie Star Wars, they become role players in that sense, even to the point of trying to heal the sick supernaturally. Just like the claims that Jedi/Sith are role playing or vampires are role playing something that is otherwise imaginary. Trying to live your life according to a "made up" thing is senseless and this includes drawing life lessons from the mythology (lore/cannon) itself as well.


Our messiahs... be it Jesus, Buddha, Mithra, Lao-tzu etc...

are elevated into mythology by... lets just call them... "fans".

isn't there something to be said about reaching for the stars? Is it senseless to reach for the stars if it gets you to the moon? Maybe a Christian cannot heal the sick through magical means. But maybe some Christian out there was inspired by stories of Jesus to go into the field of medicine. The difference is that many religions know that their gods are not real people. Western thinkers most often view polytheism as the belief that these many gods are all believed to be real. They were mythologies created by people who observed the natural world. They were largely and mostly based on real life people and events. Half our brain is logical and the other half is creative. We use our imagination in the act of creation.

Whoever thought we could fly? Someone had to imagine it first. Before computers existed they were "made up" in someone's mind. And then someone builds on the idea. Something gets created. Someone else builds on it or tries to do it better. Thus reality is often created from the mind and "made up" things.

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