Attention council members (suggestions from those you lead)

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17 May 2021 12:39 - 17 May 2021 12:41 #360216 by RyuJin

dwagoonie wrote: I only have a moment presently, but I would like to weigh in on what I find bothersome. If you look at a normal every day organization, you have a person in charge of the different functions. You do not see 1 person holding several functions. That is too much for any one person. Especially when they have a life outside of the organization to handle as well. If a position has been unmanned for a certain amount of time, it should be refilled by someone who is interested in it and not pushed onto someone who already has their hands full. There is no glory in accumulated positions until there's nothing left for anyone else.


In most organizations you don't have people quit shortly after taking office without even training someone to fill in for them...most of the folks we have allowed to take on some of these other offices discover how much time is needed to really commit or that they're way over their heads and they bail on us, leaving us to try and piece together what they were trying to do, then to fill the position again...those of us with multiple offices have them, not as some sort of greedy/selfish power grab, but as a substitute figure head until someone capable and willing comes along that won't run off the moment things get really tough and the hate mail messages start flying in....that all said, longevity is preferred because it shows true commitment...any idea how many thousands we have seen over the years that have come storming in all excited, rush through their training, then start making demands before eventually burning out and blaming us?

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]


Out of darkness, he brings light. Out of hatred, love. Out of dishonor, honor-james allen-
He who has conquered doubt and fear has conquered failure-james allen-
The sword is the key to heaven and hell-Mahomet-
The best won victory is that obtained without shedding blood-Count Katsu-
All men's souls are immortal, only the souls of the righteous are immortal and divine -Socrates-
I'm the best at what I do, what I do ain't pretty-wolverine

J.L.Lawson,Sr Knight, B.div, Eastern Studies S.I.G. Advisor (Formerly Known as the Buddhist Rite)
Former Masters: GM Kana Seiko Haruki , Br.John
Current Apprentices: Baru
Former Apprentices:Adhara(knight), Zenchi (knight)
Last edit: 17 May 2021 12:41 by RyuJin.
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17 May 2021 13:20 - 17 May 2021 13:27 #360218 by dwagoonie
"In most organizations you don't have people quit shortly after taking office without even training someone to fill in for them...most of the folks we have allowed to take on some of these other offices discover how much time is needed to really commit or that they're way over their heads and they bail on us, leaving us to try and piece together what they were trying to do, then to fill the position again"

... perhaps before someone actually takes on the position, they get a view of what they will be doing. Before they decide, they get a list of what is expected of them. They get an idea how much time is put into it. Then if they feel they can't hold that much responsibility, you see who else is interested and do the same with them. Perhaps more than one person to fulfil that position so it isn't all on one person.

~*~
"...those of us with multiple offices have them, not as some sort of greedy/selfish power grab, but as a substitute figure head until someone capable and willing comes along that won't run off the moment things get really tough and the hate mail messages start flying in"

... You have knights. You have some who care about TOJO. Maybe instead of giving someone a position, you can delegate the tasks to those willing to take them as assistants to that position. I have no idea about 'hate mail' but I do know that damage control can be limited to listening to the person sending them only a few time and trying to resolve the issue, then letting them go.

~*~
"...any idea how many thousands we have seen over the years that have come storming in all excited, rush through their training, then start making demands before eventually burning out and blaming us?"

... I keep hearing "blaming us". It is the higher ranked individuals who call the shots, is it not? There is no 'blame' there, that is you doing what you can with what you have and needing to think outside the box for better solutions. Don't let people rush through so fast. Remind people this is a temple and not a competitive race rushing to sit in the throne (this is from my own assumption based on what you are saying). Delegate to assistants in the positions. Knights of good standing and even apprentices of good standing can assist with the small stuff which would keep them excited without burning anyone out. If an individual holding a position that decides how the temple runs gets overwhelmed, that is what assistants are for. That is where small stuff can be shuffled down to those in good standing and willing to help. It would also give others an idea of what all goes into this site and how it is run on a daily basis. Knowing leads to understanding. Yes?

Just some ideas that came to mind while writing this. I'm sure there are a ton of other options that would help you to help us. Structure doesn't have to rely on the few holding up the building.


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Life is a sum of all your choices; So, what are you doing today?
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Last edit: 17 May 2021 13:27 by dwagoonie.
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17 May 2021 13:40 #360222 by Zeth Windwrecker

ren wrote: I don't see how ryujin's answer can be understood to mean there are no opportunities for 'employment'. Everyone who has an office now used to not have one.

Ideas are always given time to be correctly implemented, have different people give it a shot. Some have been failing for years now. It's also good to know when to quit.


I politely disagree. RyuJins comments make it sound like you must be within the temples inner circle in order to be considered for an office. I have yet to receive a clear yes or no, but instead am receiving long winded answers that happen to mention the higher ups get all the blame.

Zeth Windwrecker

Teaching Master: Raxicorico

“No, failure is not the end. It is a necessary part of the path” - Master Eno Cordova

“Remember, persistence reveals the path” - Master Jaro Tapal

“Our mistakes are in the past... It's about what we do next that’s important” - Cal Kestis, Jedi Knight

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17 May 2021 14:53 #360225 by Br. John
Who has been gone for months and is still showing as holding a position? I'll update the FAQ and set their status as Inactive.

If I'm forgetting an open position let me know. We need a System Administrator. Ren works too many hours at his paying job and does not have time to repair the site. We need someone who can work with a Linux Server and Joomla. It would be great if such an one is a member.

Founder of The Order
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17 May 2021 15:31 #360226 by RyuJin
Do you really believe we haven't tried any of those ideas before?

There was a span in which the council was completely hands off of all the offices...we left it to the knights to run totjo...from get go it became chaos as the knights began to experience what the council had previously...most of those knights left and never returned...then the council got blamed for "not being there"...when previously the council was blamed for being "too over bearing"...whether we engage fully, partially, or not at all, we get blamed for something that some faction perceived as being done wrong.

There is no "inner circle", if one is capable and willing then they may be considered for a position...

In any setting a new hire is not immediately given all the keys...they have to earn them and prove responsible and loyal enough...loyal as in they're not going to make a mess of things and run...we have had that happen seemingly every other year....

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]


Out of darkness, he brings light. Out of hatred, love. Out of dishonor, honor-james allen-
He who has conquered doubt and fear has conquered failure-james allen-
The sword is the key to heaven and hell-Mahomet-
The best won victory is that obtained without shedding blood-Count Katsu-
All men's souls are immortal, only the souls of the righteous are immortal and divine -Socrates-
I'm the best at what I do, what I do ain't pretty-wolverine

J.L.Lawson,Sr Knight, B.div, Eastern Studies S.I.G. Advisor (Formerly Known as the Buddhist Rite)
Former Masters: GM Kana Seiko Haruki , Br.John
Current Apprentices: Baru
Former Apprentices:Adhara(knight), Zenchi (knight)

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17 May 2021 16:11 #360231 by ren
Even the most trusted hard-wearing office holders can burn out. They are difficult to replace. No amount of fresh ideas and goodwill can make it happen. They have to be good at it. Most new blood burns out at the first 'realize you can't please everyone' stage... And there are many more stages after.

Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.
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17 May 2021 17:23 #360236 by dwagoonie
So far, this is what this thread has produced …

Questions and concerns:
1. Several members would like a thread here created by a council member that updates the temple as to what things are being voted on, when they will be voted on, and if the vote passed or not.
>>> Not addressed: Can there be transparency for members to at least know what’s going on and what decisions there are which will affect them?

2. Multiple members have made note of certain rules not being followed in regards to advancement.
>>> Not addressed: Do you feel there is inconsistency regarding this?

3. Several people want to inquire as to why there are councilors and people holding other temple offices, who have not been at the temple in months and in some cases over a year. And on the same note, there are wonderful knights and councilors here who hold multiple positions (as many as 4) who do a fantastic job, but on the same hand, they also block others from becoming more involved with the temple.
>>> Addressed: but not in a way that this question was intended to be addressed. How can this be handled better so that those who are holding these positions are not overwhelmed? WHAT has been done in the past that you feel failed, and why do you feel it would fail now?

4. Almost everyone has mentioned either knight Edan or Master Rosalyn as being very deserving of some form of official recognition for all of their amazing work they do. I personally am of the opinion that with out these two wonderful women, our temple would have been in shambles months ago if not for their continued capacity to go above and beyond.
>>> Addressed: and yes, they are fantastic with what they do

5. There are system issues that have been present for working on almost a year now such as member photo albums still do not show up for most of our users.
>>> Addressed by Br John with needing people who can do this. Thank you

6. There have also been several requests for updates from the knights corps as to when the new ip might be ready, as well as when the Jedi service corps will become a thing.
>>> Not addressed: I am interested in this as well. Any idea?

The purpose of this thread is not for council members to feel attacked or threatened, but my way of communicating the request of those below the rank of knight (which is 99 percent of the temple).
>>> Addressed with “we are always blamed” as the answer and “we did that once and instead of maintaining it to flush out those who can’t, we gave up”. What has been tried in the past, please? When listed - either within the council or public, doesn’t matter - you can discuss why they did or did not work. What do you feel would encourage loyalty and longevity? What goes wrong when people decide to up and leave every 2 years or so? What makes people stay?


Journals:
. IP
. Apprentice
. Personal
. Book of Healing
. Degree Journal

TM : Zero

Life is a sum of all your choices; So, what are you doing today?
― Albert Camus

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum - The Handmaid's Tale
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17 May 2021 18:05 - 17 May 2021 18:07 #360239 by Neaj Pa Bol
One thing I would like to address for the moment is this.

Please do not think that this is not seriously being discussed nor will the answers to each question be done in 24 hours. I, like others, have full-time jobs, Management such as mine, etc, IRL, as to where I will not spam out an answer to anyone without being serious minded or sincere in a response. I ask that, yes, reply or give thoughts but patience is not being applied either. This can not and should not be looked at as an overnight address...

Let’s show some patience as Jedi should be to answer things....

Tell me and I forget, teach me and I may remember, involve me and I learn. Benjamin Franklin

Let the improvement of yourself keep you so busy that you have no time to criticize others. Roy T. Bennett, The Light in the Heart

Participated in the making of the book, “The Jedi Compass”with 2 articles.

For today I serve so that tomorrow I may serve again. One step, One Vow, One Moment... Too always remember it is not about me... Master Neaj Pa Bol

Faith is daring the soul to go beyond what the eyes can see...

Faith is a journey, not a guilt trip...

Quiet your emotions to find inner peace. Learn from ignorance to foster knowledge.
Enjoy your passions but be immersed in serenity. Understand the chaos to see the harmony.
Life and death is to be one with the Force.

Apprentice's: Master Zanthan Storm, Jaxxy (Master Rachat et Espoir (Bridgette Barker))
Last edit: 17 May 2021 18:07 by Neaj Pa Bol. Reason: Typos
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17 May 2021 18:33 #360241 by ZealotX
First off...

I'm very THANKFUL for all of the responses from the council. I'm speaking for myself but it's always nice to hear from you. I'm glad to see such quick responses and I think it's good because it shows that there may be more of a perception issue. I think we, as a community, would benefit from additional transparency (not necessarily full transparency but maybe something like open and closed sessions) but we also need to consider other factors as well.

Secondly...

There are 2 sides to every story. Being able to see both sides is wisdom. I understand that transparency can have downsides as well as apply pressure to vote less on your own belief and opinion and more to what others may want or expect. I think nations have the same problems. We don't need to reinvent the wheel but rather learn from what works and what doesn't around the world.

On one hand, a lack of transparency mixed with the feeling of having no direct influence, will make a government look more like a dictatorship (Even if there's more than one dictator). However, on the other hand, too much influence from too many people could create chaos, and then people could say "oh why did you listen to person C's ideas and not person B or A?"

In some places, if you have enough $$$ people will listen. That is naturally a bad system. No one wants it to look like a totalitarian regime or an oligarchy, but considerations have to be made in order to protect the core identity of the Temple.

So while there are ways for things to work or not work either way it goes, I think the community can help come up with a balanced approach; and it seems like this was a good first step, just offering anonymous ideas. People can voice their thoughts but #1... the council doesn't have to do anything and #2 any idea that actually goes before the council, shouldn't be just an idea but something that has been developed into a plan so that the council isn't expected to flesh an idea out and come up with a plan that they also have no one to execute it.

Maybe there should be an online form/application process, where new ideas need to be sponsored and co-sponsored, and receive a local vote (like a survey) and then the sponsors and co-sponsors can form a team around the idea's author, to create the plan, not just of how it would work, but who would be in charge, what resources it would require, etc.

As much as people might like to have a higher degree of "access" it is also limitations and restrictions that make that same "access" more viable. So while the Council entertains these suggestions I do think we, as a community, need to work on better ways to advance an idea and evolve it into something better for the council to consider.

So maybe if there's 1 "open door" session each month or even one per quarter... And then all the other sessions can be closed door sessions. That might be a more balanced solution.
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17 May 2021 18:50 #360242 by ZealotX

2. Multiple members have made note of certain rules not being followed in regards to advancement. An example being that the rules say you advance after items a,b, and c are complete, but when those things are checked off, the temple has been disregarding those rules as written and holding people from promotion based on a single councilors opinion.


I can see both sides of this. It's fictional but I think we would be wise to consider how Anakin was treated by the council. On one hand, the council should be voting by a majority so if a single councilor's opinion is able to convince a majority then there should be no issue.

We have to consider that knight is a position of reproduction. You want to produce better knights so that there is a good standard of quality in what TOTJO, as a whole, is producing. We don't want everyone out there saying "I'm a Jedi Knight" to the point where the title becomes meaningless.

Therefore, people who might be a little impatient do need to understand what it is that they are still lacking and given more time to work on it. And that shouldn't be a fully transparent thing; going back to question 1. Because the only people who need to know is that nominee and their TM.

Rules are rules. But we also have training masters. This is a sacred one-on-one relationship ship that uses the rules as a standard baseline but ultimately, this system of masters and apprentices is much better because everyone gets the benefit of personalized training and progression. What other religion can say that? And so if the TM says they have more to teach that person then that's what it should be. If they say "I have no more to teach" then that's also what it should be. If they say "You have much to learn but I have no more to teach." then, although that is unfortunate, it's also necessary as well. Because again... these titles that some people want so badly... they need to mean something. And the councils is the last line of defense in protecting that meaning.
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