Hey! Let's Open The Vaccination Can Of Worms!

Vaccine's create an immune response, which is good as its how they work, but the problem (if it exists) might be in stacking so many vaccines together to be taken at once - that immune response might become aggravated. So perhaps the concern is that some people might be vulnerable to large immune responses caused by multiple vaccines together.... like cytokine storms at local levels in vulnerable tissues. Remembering everyone is different and science does not know everything, I think concerns should not be discounted, and researched further.

If it was me I'd get vaccinated, but have at least 3 months between individual vaccinations.

I don't know so much about abortions. I feel that there are some certainly supportable reasons to have one ; likewise it would best not be treated as a post-facto method of contraception nor just because one changes one's mind.

But then, it really isn't the vaccinations that you're all arguing over. It is freedom, choice and ultimately Justice. We could argue for centuries about these ... because we already have done.

It is prudent to be well-informed about something you get injected into your bloodstream and what it is supposed to do in there. The vaccines that they are talking about making mandatory are not the silly ones that in the long run are ineffective - like the old Hepatitis B vaccine. The vaccines that they are talking about making mandatory are the very infectious, highly communicable diseases that have been devastating in the past. That is why a century of research has gone into making them effective, affordable and preventative of future epidemics (which cost a lot of children's lives, although most of us are too young to remember that).

But it isn't merely the mortality risk factor that counts here. For the last three or even four generations, we haven't known too many people to die of the measles. That is why we think of an obligatory vaccine as importuning on our freedom of choice. We don't consider it a very serious disease since most of us haven't seen or known anyone to die of it. We have also seen the World population quadruple (from 2 000 000 000 on the eve of the Second World War to nearly 8 000 000 000 now) and the human lifespan double (42 in 1901 compared to 77,3 now) in the last hundred years ...

So -- figure this : vaccination has brought down the instances of the diseases that were a major cause of (child, but not only) mortality since the beginning of the 20^th century. But, at the same time, these diseases are not eradicated, only the frequency is lessened. If enough people choose not to vaccinate, these diseases can come back. An outbreak could overwhelm the capacity to treat everyone and that would be tragic ...

But another consideration is freedom at all cost ideology. In terms of public hygiene, we cannot enjoy the same freedoms of personal choices when there are 8 000 000 000 of us as when there were only 2 000 000 000 of us. At that time the population of the US was 140 000 000, now there are 300 000 000. Much of the same percentages of population increases can be seen over much of the industrialised World. The developing nations have had even more - and it is levelling off ... Just this indicates that potentially carrying highly contagious diseases voluntarily (which is the same as choosing not to vaccinate) into a more concentrated population, that could very easily be considered criminal.

After all, personal freedoms are not the foundation of Freedom. Individual liberty ends at the imposition on the Liberty of another. Any population should have the freedom to choose to prevent outbreaks of illnesses. There is no Justice, no nobility, in making children - or anyone of any age - suffer from any disease needlessly simply based on some silly conviction about freedom.


Kitsu Tails wrote:

As for the Jedi Bit. I always thought that Jedi were about respecting of other peoples choices and beliefs and not judging others for having them. I have seen nothing but judgment, ridicule, threats, and one sided elitist finger pointing since this thread started

Yes, the Jedi respect Liberty, Beliefs, Justice and Non-Judgement, but not necessarily just anything that someone wants to believe or do. Remember, the Liberty of others is where my individual Liberty stops. Thus, Liberty, Beliefs are respected as long as they do not encroach on the Liberty and Beliefs (and certainly not the 'safety') of others. Anyone can scream : "I have my rights !" Rarely do people even consider : "I'm responsible for all the mess my rights make for others."

And we can even uphold this Non-Judgementally ... Only Jedi can do that.

Kamizu wrote: The brain requires sugar, the body requires salt, and there's nothing wrong with flour. The body needs carbs from somewhere.

yes the body needs all of these things - but in their natural and whole state. The refinement process takes all of the "spirit" out of them, plus the minerals, vitamins and other valuable aspects that our bodies need.

I do agree there is a balance between natural and medical solutions. I am glad that modern medicine exists. But it needs to be balanced with natural solutions, as well.

This is interesting.

Mississippi has no religious exemption for vaccines — and hasn’t seen measles in over two decades

www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/02/mississippi-has-no-religious-exemption-for-vaccines-and-hasnt-seen-measles-in-over-two-decades/

As of January 30, 102 people in 14 states were reported to have measles, and most of these cases are tied to the outbreak that began at Disneyland in December. Public health officials are citing an increase in non-medical exemptions to vaccination as a key factor in these outbreaks.

Last year saw a record number of measles cases – 644 cases and 23 outbreaks – the highest since the measles was considered eliminated in the US in 2000.

Although US vaccination rates are generally high, ranging from 85% to 93%, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and state health officials across the country have expressed concern about increases in sporadic outbreaks of communicable diseases such as measles and pertussis (whooping cough).

To enroll in school in all 50 states, a child needs to be properly vaccinated, with the exception of students who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons. Where do exemptions for non-medical reasons fit in?”


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Original Article: http://theconversation.com/why-mississippi-hasnt-had-measles-in-over-two-decades-37075

baru wrote:

Kamizu wrote: The brain requires sugar, the body requires salt, and there's nothing wrong with flour. The body needs carbs from somewhere.

yes the body needs all of these things - but in their natural and whole state. The refinement process takes all of the "spirit" out of them, plus the minerals, vitamins and other valuable aspects that our bodies need.

baru wrote: I do agree there is a balance between natural and medical solutions. I am glad that modern medicine exists. But it needs to be balanced with natural solutions, as well.

You keep using the word "natural" as though it solves all our problems, but it doesn't. Natural sugar can be just as unhealthy as High Fructose Corn Syrup (HFCS) if taken in the same excessive amounts. ( Source ) That's why Pespi's Throwback marketing campaign was dubious at best because while they never outright claimed their Throwback brands lines of Pepsi, Mountain Dew, and Dr. Pepper with "real sugar" were healthier, they were certainly marketed as if they were.

Basically, the only "healthy" fructose, salt, and flour is the kind you get from eating the foods naturally containing these things: fruits, vegetables, and grains; even then it's completely possible to eat too much of one thing and be deficient in another. It doesn't mean that your body is necessarily going to better fit than the person who gets the same doses of each vitamin and mineral from processed foods.

Furthermore, this line of rhetoric is sort of misguided since that's not how vaccines work. Vaccines are no more foreign to our bodies than the diseases they prevent, why? Because vaccines are basically wounded forms of the diseases. Your immune system recognizes the disease as a thing it needs to destroy and basically "catalogues" it and how to defeat it. Vaccines basically give your immune system a practice run of how to fight off the disease like a fire drill.

baru wrote: ...But it needs to be balanced with natural solutions, as well.

Yes, because a ludicrously high infant mortality rate, a halved expectation of life ,and a bunch of fluffy-bunny feel-goods are totally worth trading in our dependence on modern medicine. Our ancestors lived "more natural" lives than we do, and they're the ones who started working for better, healthier, more scientific ways in the first place.

I know this is a very emotionally charged discussion,, and it is tough at times to take the emotion out of the thinking of all angles of the discussion. Please take the time to let the posts sink in before responding. It helps to give clear insight to your thoughts and opinions.

That being said, I am in the military, by being in the military I have given up my right to choose whether I wish to vaccinate or not. I am directed to vaccinate.

I think the debate is whether we have the right to choice, to vaccinate or not, I tend to agree that we do have a choice, if we believe we are free citizens that have the right to that choice.

However, if your choice will harm another, then you should be held accountable for the choice you made. If someone is hospitalized because you choose not to vaccinate, you are liable for the pain and suffering of the person/s hospitalized.

If someone dies because of your choice not to vaccinate, then you should be arrested and pay the penalty for killing another.
Or do we choose not to vaccinate and by that choice give up our freedom to go to public places because we could potentially cause a spread of disease, such as the Ebola breakout.

Quarantine is a form of incarceration, someone who is placed in quarantine to prevent a breakout, maybe held against their free will. Is that a viable decision? When does free will of the self, become more dangerous than the free will of those around you?

Who is responsible for the health and welfare of the child not vaccinated? The government/state or the parent? Is it child negligence? Or parental right?

I think the true issue is that if we choose only one or the other, it puts someone at risk of disease, death or loss of freedom/choice.

Is there a middle path that all can agree to? To me, the middle path I see thus far in the discussion is that of freedom of choice, with consequences for your actions. However, is there the ability to trace the source of the choice if someone else suffers because of it?

I see discussion of acting/being a Jedi about this, but I ask this, could you, as a Jedi, live with the knowledge that because you chose not to vaccinate, you caused the death of another?

I lean towards not forcing vaccines on citizens. The non-vaccinators rely on herd immunity to protect them from the diseases, so if a government wanted to nudge people to vaccinate they could disallow use of public transport to/from school for the kids, or go as far as disallow reentry into the country after international travel (until cleared of diseases)... as an incentive to do it. They should though feel free IMO to require education on non-vaccinating parents, so many might change their minds themselves. It wont change the mind of all people but those measures might assist the concept of herd immunity. Who knows, the anti-vaccine supporters might fund some future research which uncovers some really important scientific facts about it which changes everyone elses minds
:side:

Kitsu Tails wrote: Moral Comment: I am not vaccinated. Many of my family members and my friends and family friends are also....not Vaccinated and were it my choice, my children would not be vaccinated either.

I do not believe in contaminated my body with wishy washy substances that may or may not protect against 1 strand of several mutated strands when Proper Health, Hygeine, Environment and educative decisions making (Like traveling choices and actions) can do much more in the long run.

Forcing Legal obligations on vaccinations means you are taking away my rights as an American Citizen to choose freely how to live my life. So, I do not support it.

Just my two cents

Questions - not Arguments

Hi Kit,

Are you vaccinating your children? If so why?

If you or your children had a serious infection would you allow the doctor to prescribe oral or IV antibiotics as necessary?

If you or your children had cancer would you consider chemotherapy if the doctor recommended it? Radiation therapy?

What do you think vaccines are and how do they work.

Br. John wrote: Questions - not Arguments

Hi Kit,

Are you vaccinating your children? If so why?

That is in a continued state of discussion, research, and debate between myself and my husband. Most likely they will be selected Vaxed due to his demands not my choice.

If you or your children had a serious infection would you allow the doctor to prescribe oral or IV antibiotics as necessary?

I would request information and proper research before accepting. I have accepted it before during the birth of my second child.

If you or your children had cancer would you consider chemotherapy if the doctor recommended it? Radiation therapy?

I do not know. From the limited research I have done, the answer is no. But that could change dependent on further research. No one in my family has ever had cancer so it is a subject I have not delved into.

What do you think vaccines are and how do they work.

I will answer this later *bows*