Hey! Let's Open The Vaccination Can Of Worms!

As far as the images you posted, it's a good thing we have advanced in our science and medicine and understand the necessities of research and studies. :lol:

Red_Eye_Jedi wrote:

Kamizu wrote: And it goes on about the differences in types of mercury, the safety of methylmercury, and there's even a chart on which vaccines have thimerosal in them and why it has been approved for use.

http://www.rxlist.com/flulaval-drug.htm

Each 0.5-mL dose from the multi-dose vial contains 50 mcg thimerosal ( < 25 mcg mercury); thimerosal, a mercury derivative, is added as a preservative.


Yup they took out the mercury.

If you notice, I did keep in the quote I posted from the FDA that said the multi-dose of the flu vaccine contained trace amounts of thimerosal and that there are readily available doses of that vaccine that do not contain thimerosal. If you would read up on what thimerosal is, you'll notice it acts differently than mercury. Ethylmercury gets flushed out of the body naturally. I wouldn't worry so much about what makes up a chemical compound as how it acts with our bodies. Or I would run in terror from salt (Sodium+Chlorine) :silly:

Red_Eye_Jedi wrote: Even the mercury free vaccines contain 8 times less than that they are not free from mercury.

If they do not contain thimerosal, they do not contain thimerosal. They don't joke with this stuff. If it is free, it's not 'kinda-sorta' free. It's free.

Red_Eye_Jedi wrote: I am not making the claim that vaccines are bad, or that they cause autism. Just that that mercury is one of the most potent neurotoxins known, and intentionally injecting yourself with any amount of it is beyond idiotic.

It's about as dumb as spraying your fruits and vegetables with neurotoxins and eating them, or using lead II acetate to sweeten your wine, or any number of idiotic things.

If you think mercury isn't so bad I urge you to see exactly what it does to your brain for yourself:

Thimerosal doesn't act like the mercury you're thinking of....

Kamizu wrote: Thimerosal doesn't act like the mercury you're thinking of....

Yes it does.

Fenton wrote: (Not intending to start anything here, but it needs to be said)

Just a quick pointer: Thimerosal is not mercury

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/thimerosal/

"Thimerosal is a mercury-containing preservative"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal

Cases have been reported of severe poisoning by accidental exposure or attempted suicide, with some fatalities. Animal experiments suggest that thiomersal rapidly dissociates to release ethylmercury after injection; that the disposition patterns of mercury are similar to those after exposure to equivalent doses of ethylmercury chloride; and that the central nervous system and the kidneys are targets, with lack of motor coordination being a common sign. Similar signs and symptoms have been observed in accidental human poisonings.

http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/members/2002/suppl-1/11-23clarkson/clarkson-full.html

....

Methylmercury and ethylmercury distribute to all body tissues, crossing the blood–brain barrier and the placental barrier, and ethylmercury also moves freely throughout the body.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajim.20476/abstract;jsessionid=1E7AD6AE775D96DD40BFED1EF0B5B912.f02t04

Fenton wrote: Another note, you get a higher natural dosage of mercury by eating a tuna fish sandwich than you would in all vaccines containing thimerosal or other mercury compounds combined.

You aren't getting intravenous tuna fish. But even still its toxic enough for consumer reports to warn all pregnant mothers to avoid it:

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2014/10/can-eating-the-wrong-fish-put-you-at-higher-risk-for-mercury-exposure/index.htm



"However, Consumer Reports disagrees with the recommendations from the FDA and EPA on how much tuna women and children may eat. (We don’t think pregnant women should eat any.)"

Kamizu wrote: They don't joke with this stuff.

It used to be common knowledge that the mercury in fillings stayed in the fillings and did not leave the tooth.

That was proven false.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1928419

It accumulates in the organs.

Red_Eye_Jedi wrote:

Fenton wrote: (Not intending to start anything here, but it needs to be said)

Just a quick pointer: Thimerosal is not mercury

Kamizu wrote: Thimerosal doesn't act like the mercury you're thinking of....

Yes it does.


http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/thimerosal/

"Thimerosal is a mercury-containing preservative"

It contains mercury like water contains hydrogen. You missed the rest of this from that same link

the CDC wrote: There is no convincing evidence of harm caused by the low doses of thimerosal in vaccines, except for minor reactions like redness and swelling at the injection site. However, in July 1999, the Public Health Service agencies, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and vaccine manufacturers agreed that thimerosal should be reduced or eliminated in vaccines as a precautionary measure.

Red_Eye_Jedi wrote: [strike]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal[/strike]

Wikipedia is not a reputable source for information.

Red_Eye_Jedi wrote: [strike]http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/members/2002/suppl-1/11-23clarkson/clarkson-full.html[/strike]

Broken link

Red_Eye_Jedi wrote: Methylmercury and ethylmercury distribute to all body tissues, crossing the blood–brain barrier and the placental barrier, and ethylmercury also moves freely throughout the body.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajim.20476/abstract;jsessionid=1E7AD6AE775D96DD40BFED1EF0B5B912.f02t04

Yay it can travel! That doesn't mean it's harmful. In mass quantities? Probably. But you can die from drinking too much water too. Thimerosal is naturally processed out of the body.

Red_Eye_Jedi wrote:

Fenton wrote: Another note, you get a higher natural dosage of mercury by eating a tuna fish sandwich than you would in all vaccines containing thimerosal or other mercury compounds combined.

You aren't getting intravenous tuna fish. But even still its toxic enough for consumer reports to warn all pregnant mothers to avoid it:

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2014/10/can-eating-the-wrong-fish-put-you-at-higher-risk-for-mercury-exposure/index.htm



"However, Consumer Reports disagrees with the recommendations from the FDA and EPA on how much tuna women and children may eat. (We don’t think pregnant women should eat any.)"

Kamizu wrote: They don't joke with this stuff.

It used to be common knowledge that the mercury in fillings stayed in the fillings and did not leave the tooth.

That was proven false.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1928419

It accumulates in the organs.

I'm not sure why Consumer Reports is giving out medical advice but moot point anyways.

Is the mercury in thimerosal the same as the kind found in certain fish?

The CDC wrote: No. Thimerosal contains a form of mercury called ethylmercury. In contrast, methylmercury is an environmental contaminant. In March 2004, the FDA and the EPA released a joint advisory for the consumption of fish for women who may become pregnant, pregnant women, nursing mothers, and young children. The advisory is based on an EPA standard of 0.1 mcg/kg per day of methylmercury, which is not a component of thimerosal.

Red_Eye_Jedi wrote: I am not making the claim that vaccines are bad, or that they cause autism. Just that that mercury is one of the most potent neurotoxins known, and intentionally injecting yourself with any amount of it is beyond idiotic.

Anyone with a cursory understanding of chemistry knows that compounds change chemical properties. Otherwise, you're intentionally ingesting large amounts (daily, hopefully) of two of the most flammable elements that can be found reasonably commonly on the planet. Since it's been a while since the last time I set water on fire, one can assume that these compounds are relatively different in effect than their constituent elements.

Fenton wrote: We don't live in the dark ages anymore. It's the 21st century. Do your research, and make sure you think before you post things.

I concur.


[hr]

Kamizu wrote: Broken link

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1241144/




[hr]

Kamizu wrote: I'm not sure why Consumer Reports is giving out medical advice

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/canned-tuna-may-contain-excessive-mercury/


"Children who eat two medium servings of albacore, or white, tuna per week could be exposed to as much as six times the dose that federal guidelines consider safe"

...

"The report recommends that all children avoid eating albacore tuna."

...

"Scientists not involved with the study generally agreed with the report’s advice.

“They are probably good, conservative recommendations,” said University of South Carolina assistant professor Jennifer Nyland, who studies mercury’s effects on autoimmune diseases.

A panel of scientists from the National Research Council concluded more than a decade ago that prenatal exposure to mercury reduces the mental abilities of children, including their motor skills, attention and IQs. The FDA and EPA fish consumption guidelines are based on 25 years of studies of effects in Faroe Islands children highly exposed to mercury in the womb."



[hr]

Kamizu wrote: If they do not contain thimerosal, they do not contain thimerosal.

FALSE.


Their definition of mercury free is much like unlimited data on your cellphone.

Mercury free means 3mcg or less.

If I smoke 25 cigarettes a day and then drop down to 3 cigaretess a day, am I cigarette free?

http://www.ok.gov/health/pub/PRG/07c.pdf

"may contain trace amounts ( mcg) of mercury left after post-production thimerosal removal, but these amounts have no biological effect."



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3018252/






[hr]

Kamizu wrote: Ethylmercury gets flushed out of the body naturally. I wouldn't worry so much

I know you wouldn't worry so much.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2957583/


Neonatal Administration of Thimerosal Causes Persistent Changes in Mu Opioid Receptors in the Rat Brain Neurochem Res. 2010 Nov; 35(11): 1840–1847.



"Thimerosal administration caused dose-dependent statistically significant increase in MOR densities in the periaqueductal gray and caudate putamen, but decrease in the dentate gyrus, where it was accompanied by the presence of degenerating neurons and loss of synaptic vesicle marker (synaptophysin). These data document that exposure to thimerosal during early postnatal life produces lasting alterations in the densities of brain opioid receptors along with other neuropathological changes, which may disturb brain development."



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21350943



Integrating experimental (in vitro and in vivo) neurotoxicity studies of low-dose thimerosal relevant to vaccines.



Neurochem Res. 2011 Jun;36(6):927-38. doi: 10.1007/s11064-011-0427-0. Epub 2011 Feb 25.


"activity of low doses of Thimerosal against isolated human and animal brain cells was found in all studies and is consistent with Hg neurotoxicity"

animal studies have shown that exposure to Thimerosal-Hg can lead to accumulation of inorganic Hg in brain, and that (d) doses relevant to TCV exposure possess the potential to affect human neuro-development. Thimerosal at concentrations relevant for infants' exposure (in vaccines) is toxic to cultured human-brain cells and to laboratory animals.




[hr]

steamboat28 wrote: Anyone with a cursory understanding of chemistry knows

Steamboat, they used to tell us that anyone with a cursory understanding of chemistry knows that the mercury in dental amalgams is fixed and cannot leave the tooth to poison the body. At one point that was common knowledge even though it has been proven false.


"Mercury from dental "silver" tooth fillings impairs sheep kidney function."


www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1928419


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ylnQ-T7oiA


Here you can see mercury vapor from dental amalgams.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xf6uCw2ztxw

Here you can see exactly what mercury does to the brain, from the university of Calgary.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_hatter_disease



Effects of chronic occupational exposure to mercury, such as that commonly experienced by affected hatters, include mental confusion, emotional disturbances, and muscular weakness. Severe neurological damage and kidney damage can also occur. Neurological effects include Korsakoff's dementia and erethism

-Mayz, Eusebio (1973). Mercury Poisoning


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erethism

Erethism or erethism mercurialis is a neurological disorder which affects the whole central nervous system, as well as a symptom complex derived from mercury poisoning. This is also sometimes known as the mad hatter disease. Historically, this was common among old England felt-hatmakers who used mercury to stabilize the wool in a process called felting, where hair was cut from a pelt of an animal such as a rabbit. The industrial workers were exposed to the mercury vapors, giving rise to the expression “mad as a hatter.”

- http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/tox.10116/abstract;jsessionid=2CB64A6364F6BDAA9A48BA2AEBB8CF23.f03t02



It is commonly characterized through behavioral changes such as irritability, low self-confidence, depression, apathy, shyness and timidity, and in some extreme cases with prolonged exposure to mercury vapors, delirium, personality changes and memory loss occur as a result. People with erethism find it difficult to interact socially with others, with behaviors similar to that of a social phobia.

-WHO (1976) Environmental Health Criteria 1: Mercury, Geneva, World Health Organization, 131 pp.

-WHO. Inorganic mercury. Environmental Health Criteria 118. World Health Organization, Geneva, 1991.

[hr]

Again this debate is framed as pro/anti vaccine, and it isn't about that.

It's about about intentionally exposing yourself to a known and potent neurotoxin.

Just because you are against spraying our fruits and vegetables with potent neurotoxins, doesn't make you anti fruit and vegetable.

I am pro vaccination, but I am saying it is absurd to intentionally inject ourselves with known neurotoxins, put it in our teeth, eat food contaminated with it.

It is just as idiotic as the Romans who sweetened their wine with sugar of lead.

steamboat28 wrote: h6a97607.jpg

That was good.

This is a wonderful discussion. I wish I could spend this much time exploring all of the different "stuff" in my world. I am amazed that "health topics" like this are still a mystery? Why is this? Why is it so confusion to get the "straight dope"? Why is there so many different opinions and variables? We have been doing this for years and we still don't have an answer?

Ask 10 nutritionists and dieticians what is the best diet, and you will get 20 or more answers.

Is this because of capitalism? Because people have too much at stake to be honest? Because noone likes to be "wrong"? Or do we have to admit, that we actually really don't know exactly what we are doing?

I like the play: An Enemy of the People,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Enemy_of_the_People

This play does such a wonderful job exploring this topic.

So my question is - after all of this long discussion - is there a conclusive answer? Is there a Yes or No in this? Or is it still a "Maybe"? Or a "it depends on......"?

The complexity of the human organism is huge, and then each of us is different, so it's hard to understand how something so complex works when we do not know how 'all' of even one person works.

The medical establishment works within what it can test for statistical safety and effect, the 'natural' approach works/worked by trial and error - both approaches are far from perfect, and both work best when done hand in hand IMO.

Ms Adder got a life threatening debilitating condition which the medical establishment says there is 'no cure' for, and we discovered removing gluten entirely from her diet cured it completely.... nearly 8 years, on still cured, no symptoms and no medicines!! The best Dr's would have had us use radiation, surgery and the be on medication for the rest of her life.

So there is a lot of scope for individuals or small groups to suffer from something that most everyone else does not suffer from.... these types of things are very hard to science to uncover, but a good opportunity to apply some science onto once identified. If science does not have the answers, then some people try the other approaches. So it is a fair expectation that some people might have concern about the medical advice about the safety of something if they are hearing from people of observed correlations. It's should be up to science to explore it, not governments to ignore it. Perhaps reward those that do vaccinate instead of punishing those that don't.